Magically removing the need to sleep

I was wondering, can Hermetic magic remove the need to sleep?
There's a Divine holy power effect (Purity + Trascendence) that allows you to do so.
The Merinita Mystery "Becoming" includes this effect.
I seem to remember one such (ritual) spell in a previous edition (4th or perhaps 3rd).
But is it possible with "vanilla" Hermetic magic under 5th edition?

The covenants book describes a laboratory routine labeled addled where the character is using some means to decrease the amount of sleep that he or she needs. "Vanilla" magical spells are specifically mentioned as a choice for a tool to use to achieve this state. As you can guess by the name "addled" the book doesn't make this a cure all (yet it it isn't all drawbacks either).

I think that avoiding sleep is easily possible but being rested without sleep contradicts the limit of energy (p. 80 of the core book).

Maybe a variation on The Gift Of Vigor. You still get your sleep, but someone else does it for you.

Take in mind that you can only get the opposite effect with the gift of vigor: the MAGUS transfers his energy to an other human. So the magus gets WORSE off than before. The opposite (the magus getting better as a result of the interchange) would require a breakthrough since it can render the fatigue problems for magi irrelevant: you simply carry around a pair of grogs to act as alkaline fatigue receptacles to recharge your magus when he is fatigued. Quite a boost to hermetics, really.

SPOILER ALERT (text in white)

[color=white]In Triamore there is a plot hook just about that happening.

edit. i was talking rubbish, lol

Hmm, what if you gave a grog an item that could cast gift of vigor. The grog becomes more fatigued, whoever he touches the item to (mage obviously) becomes refreshed.

WOW!! Such a simple solution! Weird no one ever thought of that. It hadn't occurred to me for sure. Kudos to you, but be careful about the consequences of implementing those items in your saga.... Having alkaline magi can change the power dynamics of the saga substantially....



I was thinking of something slimey like this. My Flambeau magus has Life Boost, and I was wondering: what if I had a bunch of slaves chained in my dungeon, their collars enchanted to feed me their fatige if even any one of them is more rested than me.


Nah, I can't do that. That's more the sort of slime a Tytalus magus would try to pull.

The device, not the grog, casts the spell, right? I'd say that most objects don't have Fatigue levels, so you can't transfer bodily energy from them. Maybe you could enchant the effect into a living person, though...

I would disagree, Erik.

The Range of the spell is touch, therefore by having a device affixed to a slave the casting would affect the slave and (perhaps with some modifications ) could then channel the fatigue to the magus. This could be one of those uncommon instances where an AC came into play without actually being the Range of the effect itself (more like the Target).

Since the whole thing revolves around the base guideline for ReCo, I consider if valid that a magus with sufficiently high scores in the Arts could "Direct the flow of (another's) bodily energy" in a vampiric fashion to restore himself. The guideline itself doesnt say "Direct only in one direction" or "May only donate energy", it says "Direct" and thus should be up to the "Director" which way it flows.

Granted the Gift of Vigor spell makes a feeble attempt to suggest receipt of energy as being as yet undiscovered, however, one could just as easily say that this particular spell was the best someone else could manage and that other formulations using the same base guideline could do better.

I do appreciate the argument from Limits but I would agree with the disclaimer there that it is probably a flaw of Hermetic Theory. Make it a breakthrough issue, by all means, but I wouldn't rule it out altogether.

Besides, there are plenty of other ways to address any magus would practice such energy theft, including demonic corruption, divine wrath, destroyed reputation within the order, possible Wizard's March, etc..

What does the text of the spell say? I remember it as being something like the caster gives his Fatigue to a target within range.

If magi could channel bodily energies through an Arcane Connection, I'd imagine they'd use it in this spell, as it would be a lot more useful. Even if you couldn't benefit from it yourself, you could take the fatigue from a slave and give it to another magus.

Yes the actual Gift of Vigor spell says that it can only be used to give energy not to take it. That however, as I suggested, could be taken to be merely the flaw of that particular spell. A differing formulation could be conceived which might resolve the failure of the Gift spell, albeit perhaps at a higher level or with a Hermetic Breakthrough to satisfy the rules lawyers re: the Limit of Energy.

Gift of Vigor transfers your fatigue level to the target, and you assume the target's level (and then apply fatigue from casting). It in fact can only be used on a target with a lower fatigue level. So you could use it to steal fresh fatigue from anyone (ie: hapless grogs). But it is Momentary duration, so only lasts for a moment, and then the Fatigue levels are returned. The spell specifically say: "Magi have long looked for a way to restore their energy in order to cast more spells. This is the closest they've come."

I have yet to find the Fatigue incurred from avoiding sleep, but I would say 1 Long term Fatigue level from going without sleep, and then add 1 Long term Fatigue level for each 1/2 day beyond it (6 hours). Since Long Term can only be restored by sleep, this can get dangerous. So the advantages of avoiding sleep when study takes a season are negligible. In fact, it can be assumed a Magus goes without sleep during key moments, and recovers sleep as part of their regular study.

Now if you could invent a version of Gift of Vigor with a Year duration, you could cast it on a fresh Grog each day to eliminate your Fatigue. This would have to be done daily, and you would exhaust your Grogs until they started grabbing pitchforks (albeit sleepily). I am going to put that one in "more trouble than it's Hermetically worth". Even Endurance of the Berserkers craps out the moment you take your last Fatigue level.

hmm, well what if you were to cast Gift of Vigor and then fast cast Mirror of Opposition on it? Since ReCo has no real "opposite" per se, unlike Creo/Perdo, perhaps the effect itself reverses and thus you take energy instead of giving it?

How's that for spell combo munchkinism? :wink:

Cute, but what the likely result would be is that you both gain your fatigue level, or both have yours... or you keep your own mutually (kinda like casting no spell at all).

Rego spells do not revert to the previous condition when the momentary duration runs out - If I move a rock, it stays moved. Likewise, if I move bodily energy, it should stay where it was put.

In answer to above, I've always seen the guideline as allowing spells that transfer energy both ways, and indeed another player in my saga has designed the Theft of Vigor, going the other way. I'd say it needs to either be voluntary or possibly Sta stress 6ish resistable though, and still can't make you less fatigued than they are.

I would agree with the item usage - items also use their wielder's voice, and there are a couple of other examples.

It's all opinion though - just remember many grogs might not be too happy to be tired all the time, especially if they don't get a choice in the matter.

Edit: Someone just pointed out that with any of the life linked or life boost abilities, even just being able to get more fatigue from Gift of Vigor and a couple of distant casters is amazingly powerful - items horrifically so, and stealing it is basically an I Win button for people with those virtues.

Necro posting but

What is "a lower fatigue level than you" in the Gift of vigor description?

Does it mean the target has to be MORE exhausted (inconscious vs fresh) than you (you give your freshness and are tired after)

or the contrary? (you give your fatigue and go fresh after the spell)

With the name of the spell, i think about 1 now, but first, i thought 2.

I think i'm gonna propose the magical item for grogs.

Wouldn't it be simpler to rego craft theriacs to restore fatigue lost due to lack of sleep?

I'd say that it's a part of humanity's Essential Nature to need to sleep. So the occasional nightless sleep could be accomplished with Rego. However, long-term, it's a Muto effect that probably has warping involved. Plus an ST could argue that you start to go insane.

I had an idea a while back that I actually decided to shoot down myself. I'll post it here.

Lucid Dreaming: Rego Mentem 30
R: Per, Dur: Sun, T: I

While asleep, you may choose how your dreams unfold. Many Magi use this to wrestle with problems in the lab and to find solutions. This gives them extra time to consider problems. While the Magus' dream cannot have any physical effect in the real world, it does add to theorizing time. This effectively gives a +1 to all lab totals for each month in which the Magus uses this spell regularly, to a maximum of +3 per season. Note that this is genuine, restful sleep therefore confers all the benefits of a normal night's sleep.
Base 20 (Give onesself a complex mental command), +2 sun.

I originally thought of this as a base of 4 (control mental state), but that was pushing it too far.

Honestly... I don't think I'd allow this, even though this is my spell. It doesn't seem to fit in with the medieval paradigm particularly well. What are other people's takes on it? (Both the mechanics of the spell and the allowability).

As for chaining up your grogs with the item to give you fatigue back... Harsh. That's a loyalty of -8 for sure :smiley:.

Beware the power of Mercurian Mutantes Magi and their faithful Redcaps:

They cast The Gift Of Vigor and tether it to a Redcap to get the fatigue level. :smiling_imp: