Major Magical Focus or Minor?

I agree that there is a little loose language in the descriptions of the foci virtues.

On principle though, given that we have clear published reference to foci beyond those in the core book, I have to say I like the implications, power levels be damned. If a focus (like wooden wands) opens up too much of an opportunity for sticking any old power in a wooden wand, then I'd make sure it was taken as a major virtue. At least that way the player gets what they want (a master wand maker) and the storyguide and troupe are satisfied that such a big bonus has been well paid for.

The main principle with foci and other virtues (&flaws):
If it gives little advantage it should be minor virtue. Big advangages should be major virtues.
Even the certamen focus of the Tremeres doesn't fit into the one art rule.
You can set this wooden wand focus into minor or major as you wish. No problem here.
Problem will only appear if you choose something strong but thinking it a minor thing. When later its big power turns out you need to rewrite the main points of your character. And the usual debates will come in. That's why clear definitions needed.

Just here to point out that I woulod NEVER allow my own character to get double art bonus for designing a CrIg spell that looks like a wolf head. If the magus wants a damage dealing spoell dealing with wolves, he better uses CrAn.

I agree with Birbin, appart from that.

Xavi

That's not the point. You don't get the bonus because it looks like a wolf, you get the bonus because you're enchanting a wold bone. The effect is immaterial. But because you're a wolf mage your effect will probably look like a wolf, out of keeping to your theme if nothing else.

If he invented the spell, rather than enchanted a piece of wolf, then of course the focus wouldn't apply.

There was a reference to a SPELL that was like that. If the enchanted item is a wolf bone wand, no problem getting the bonus if you want to enchant a spell to make frolicking faeries turn pink.

Xavi

Ejidoth gives an idea I find pretty good here:

I quote the relevant part:

I would still give the bonus to aquam spells enchanted into Jade. After all you are instilling the effect into a stone you know inside out and flipping it while standing on your nose.

Enchanting jade is a lame ability.

If you are uncomfortable with it aplying to the doubling the minor art, you could at least double the bonus of jade for aquam spells to +4 instead of +2. Still gives a reason to use jade as your base component for aquam spells if you are a jade magus.

Cheers,

Xavi

Nope, you haven't understood.

The Enchanting Jade focus works like a normal focus when enchanting aquam-based spells into jade.
Way more powerfull than a normal focus (it covers an entire art), but limited to enchanting jade.

However in the definition of a focus it specifically restricts from a lab activity. You cannot have a focus of "enchanting" or "researching" or "inventing" etc.

Note that, as I mention in the other thread, that could simply be taken to mean you can't have Minor Magical Focus: Charged Items, or Minor Magical Focus: Lesser Invested Devices, or whatever.

I'm not sure it necessarily goes against Minor Magical Focus: Enchanting Wooden Wands, which by the slight alteration to the rules I was suggesting, would give you a bonus to any magic that would allow a wooden wand to project something, repel something, etc. (the shape and material bonuses for wooden wands.)

This is very different from Minor Magical Focus: Charged Items, for example. A focus in charged items would allow any effect, provided it was a charged item. A minor magical focus in wooden wands would allow only the limited set of effects that wands provide shape and material bonuses to, and would only allow it when the effects were enchanted into a wooden wand. This lacks the blandness of thematics that a focus in a type of lab activity would have, and the power of allowing focus: wooden wands, or whatever, to apply to any magic having to do with or enchanted into wooden wands. It strikes a balance that I, at least, like.

Further, I submit that even the Ars Magica line itself has turned its back somewhat on the rule you're attempting to quote. The Cofraternity of Himinis the Mad provides Minor Magical Focus (Wooden Wands) which is useless and nonsensical by your interpretation, and the Cofraternity of Roland has Minor Magical Focus (Swords), which is only slightly better. Both are Verditius subgroups, further suggesting that the foci are meant for enchantment.

Edit: I have to say, it's sort of amusing that my argument uses examples from House Verditius, and I'm arguing against someone that's chosen to have a name 'ex Verditius', here.

Hi,

Agreed for the first six.

The seventh, presumably Re(Cr)Co(An), might be technically allowed, but is at best lvl40 (30 for 7LS + 1 magnitude for each requisite) and possibly as high as lvl50 (30 for 7LS + 2 magnitudes for each requisite; see pg 115). That's if the spell is permitted at all. Though I favor interesting uses of a focus, such as a CrAu(An) version of Clouds o Rain and Thunder that rains wolf blood, the proposed teleport/wolf is nothing more than two wholly unrelated effects tacked together. I find the proposed use similar to a Creo Imaginem specialist with a focus in itching inventing diverse spells with Cr and Im requisites in order to get the benefit: I kill the dragon and my toe itches. I summon an elemental and my toe itches. I sense the nature of vis and my toe itches.... It might be legal, but.

The eighth to me seems reasonable for casting spells on the bone, for destroying the bone, but not at all, as in completely and thoroughly and totally not for enchanting effects into the bone that do not themselves involve the focus. A magical focus either applies or does not apply to specific effects achieved through Hermetic magic, regardless of whether it is a formulaic spell, a ritual, a spont, a lesser enchanted device, etc. The provision for any effect instilled into the bond with a familiar gaining the benefit of any focus that applies to the familiar itself is especially called out. But that's just me. YSMV

Anyway,

Ken

I think the wolf 'seven league stride' works...
It would be Re(Mu)An(Co), with a boost of one magnitude. Essentially the spell is a combination of two spells:

Turn into a wolf.
Teleport a wolf (at personal range) seven leagues.

Since the Rego Animal section says Rego Corpus can be used for guidelines, teleporting a wolf seven leagues is entirely possible. Turning into a wolf for a moment is definitely possible. And the combination works, to me...

I imagine a wolf-wizard turning into a wolf and leaping away, fading as he leapt... then fading in, in mid-air at his destination, changing back to human as he lands.

The requisites probably hurt more than the magical focus helps, in any case. But if a wolf mage wants to invent a spell like that and use his focus, I'd let him.

The example of Creo Imaginem to make your toe itch, added to an unrelated effect, wouldn't work because the focus wouldn't apply to the spell, since the main effect of the spell has nothing to do with the focus. The teleporting wolf thing works because both halves of the spell are wolf-specific.

1 Like

There are two requisites, which provide two shifts in magnitude. (Pages 114-115.) The base spell is level 30 or higher, so each suggested shift is two magnitudes. By default rules, the resulting spell is level 50. :slight_smile:

I still don't like it; the spells are not related, and the combination is cheesy even by my low, low standards. But technically it's allowed by the rules as written--which makes it a level 50 ritual.

Anyway,

Ken

The thing is, I plan to actually "jump" while in wolf form. I transform into a wolf for Mom duration, and the wolf form jumps 7 leagues with the use of magic (or less, depoending on how far I want to go)

And yes, I planned it to be +1 magnitude.

I find wolves jumping around to have plenty of character. Wolves jump, after all :slight_smile: The problem will be how to teleport my pack with me, since I can't do it with the same spell (they start being wolves themselves).....

Cheers,

Xavi

If you turn into a wolf you are still a human and affected by only with Co spells not An! So the focus is useless in this case.
This combo works only if you are a Bjornaer who in heartbeast form can be affected with An spells. In this case he have to transform into wolf and use the modified seven league stride spell.

No, when you turn into a wolf you are affected by corpus and animal (HoH: MC p.22)

There seems to be a slight mis-understanding here. I was saying that you cannot have a focus which is a lab activity. I have always argued (using those two examples) that a focus should apply to a lab activity, and that it will apply to any effects enchanted into something your focus covers. e.g. A Pilum of Fire into a wand (if your focus is wands).

Maybe I am a little bit obtuse right now, but I just thought that this was the opposite.

So what is the actual argument?
That a focus in wands is not possible? that the focus should not apply to enchant the wand with a PoF? That it would apply to use the item but not at creating it? That it should be major instead of minor?.....

Xavi

You and me both :wink:

Would you allow the type of wood to affect this as well, like ash tree wood providing a bonus to perdo (IIRC) and oak to rego?

Xavi