Marius of Scholomance (development)

Characteristics:
Int 2 Per 1
Pre 2 Com 5
Str -2 Sta -1
Dex -1 Quick -1

Virtues
wealthy(major +3)
good teacher(minor +1)
puissent teacher(minor +1)
affinity with teaching(minor +1)
arcane lore(minor +1)
educated(minor +1)
great com(minor +1)
great com(minor +1)

Flaws
dark secret(major -3)
tainted with evil(minor -1)
driven(major -3)
non combatant(minor -1)
visions(minor -1)
no sense of direction(minor -1)

Abilities
Romanian 5
Area Lore -Eastern Muldavia 2
Guile 2
Stealth 2
Survival 2
Latin 5
Artes Liberales 2
Magic Theory 5
Finesse 5
teaching 10
Magic Lore 4
Faerie Lore 4
Infernal Lore 4
Dominion Lore 4
medicine 4
Order of Hermes Lore 4
Code of Hermes 4
Arabic 4
Philosphae 5
Ancient Egyptian 4
Classic Greek 4
intrigue 1

Marcus saw the power of the village wise women when he was young, and it became his lifelong ambition to have that power for himself- his entire life was dedicated to gaining The Gift which he was not born with. He studied everything he could of it, and even went so far as to bribe a magistrate to allow him to sacrifice a condemned criminal, though the magistrate believed he was merely studying the body for medical research. A tremere magus however saw the body afterwards and recognized the ability behind it, and recruited Marcus as a student at scholomance, where he then turned around and served as a teacher.

The caps are up to Fightmasterm and he is the one who decides if Vocis hires you or not. In my opinion though, you are pushing the limits far more than you need to and making the character one dimensional. You don't need a Com score of +5, and you don't need a Teaching score of 10. Com +3 and Teaching 5 should suit perfectly fine. That will result in a Teaching Quality of 20xp for a single student, better than our ace swordmaster Fausto.
Further, you neglected to include the Puissant modifier again. And you neglect specializations. For Languages, write them as Greek 5 (classical), Coptic 5 (ancient), Arabic 5 (classical), etceteras.
Artes Liberales. Philosophiae, and Medicine should all be at least 5 or better. You have no score in Profession-Scribe. I suggest at least a 6. The supernatural lore skills should be at least 5.
The issue with the teaching score being so high is that it sets the bar too high for other characters, and makes you useless to do anything except teach how to teach. Look at other existing specialist characters. Our swordmaster can teach at quality 13 to 19, not 27. And he is also a deadly fighter. Berhard the forge companion, his craft score is only 6 (which is pretty high) and he is also a shapeshifter.

I also suggested that you work together with Fightmaster on this character. Have yoy spoken to him about any ideas?

I would also point out that Tainted with Evil might not be a good flaw when one of the magi has Sense Holiness and Unholiness...

Yeah, that slipped my notice. And what is the Dark Secret?

Isn't this going a little overboard? Must you really make the best teacher ever?
If this is your concept, fine, but if he's "just a teacher", even a good one, must he really be that optimised?
Like marko told you in another thread, you seem to have a tendency to go overboard and min/max a lot... This ain't always nescessary :wink: Breathe, silveroak! :wink:

I like his skills, though, save for the teaching score :unamused:
In fact, this becomes counter-productive: He'll teach someone a season, and be done with it. It might be better if he could take more time, but train people to higher levels. Soemtimes, it's better to go to skill 7 in 4 seasons than skill 4 in 1.
Again, what's his age? You keep forgetting this on your characters

His background is, once again, slightly at odds with his skills: As it is, he didn't learn everything he could, he mostly learned how to teach.
With affinity, he spend about 183XP on teaching. Going by 20xp/year, that's 9 freakin years! Compare to his 160xp on realm lores... Maybe more to the point, this guy is supposed to be a scholar and searching power, and he spend 80xp on "natural magic" (philosophiae and AL), just 4 years.

If I might? Optimise him less for teaching, and broaden him.
I would probably drop finesse and maybe MT, and increase realm lores, AL and Philosophiae.
Decrease his teaching, increase his skills. Depending on marko's wishes, but it might be interesting to give him ligatures and theriacs from A&A.
For exemple, if you swap his teaching (Puissant and Affinity included) and Philosophiae, he is still a very good teacher, but can do something besides teaching how to teach, and is interesting to magi since he can train them to high philosophiae levels and create formulaes. Even without A&A, this is, IMO, better for the covenant than a maxed-out teaching score. And this is stilll less good than being able to train everyone to 7 in a wider range of skills.

My opinion exactly.

That'd be the crimijnal he sacrificed, althougb this souhnds more like diabolical past than dark secret to me.

Actually that should be 8+2, so he spent 120 xp on teaching at 30 per year, so 4 years at age 33 into teaching. I'm reworking this one, this was a first draft...

I just wanna mention what a good sport you are :smiley:

version 2: age 36
Int 2 Per 1
Pre 2 Com 3
Str -2 Sta -1
Dex -1 Quick -1

Virtues
wealthy(major +3)
good teacher(minor +1)
mild aging(minor +1)
puissant teaching(minor +1)
arcane lore(minor +1)
educated(minor +1)
hermetic experience(minor +1)
priveledged upbringing(minor +1)

Flaws
dark secret(major -3)
tainted with evil(minor -1)
driven(major -3)
magical fascination(minor -1)
visions(minor -1)
no sense of direction(minor -1)

Abilities
Romanian 5
Area Lore -Eastern Muldavia 2
Guile 2
Stealth 2
Survival 2
Latin 5
Artes Liberales 7
teaching 7+2
Magic Lore 7
Faerie Lore 7
Infernal Lore 7
intrigue 3
medicine 5
Apothocary 4
chirurgy 1
Arabic 4
Philosphae 7
Ancient Egyptian 4
Classic Greek 4
intrigue 1

Much better. You still have some awesome totals (24xp to a single student), but you are not totally maxed out and you still have room to grow in play.
I will be posting my draft soon, Draganna Tesla from Serbia.

I'll second that, and I really hope you continue to be one after this post. Please understand I'm trying to help, not pick a fight.

I think the new version of Marius is better, but I still think it's way too much. Ditto for Donna and Adan. I haven't responded on these topics because my concerns are subjective and I didn't want to be 'that guy'. However, I think I've hit on a way to illustrate my concerns with some level of objectivity while hopefully not coming off as a jerk. We'll see if I'm successful... :slight_smile:

I've reviewed every active magus, companion, and grog on the wiki. The following is a list of all the examples I could find of Abilities above level 5. I'm focusing on Abilities of 6+ because I (personally and subjectively) classify anyone exceeding 5 as an 'expert' at that Ability. Others may disagree, but I don't think a difference in personal benchmarks will drastically affect my point. Items with an asterisk represent an Affinity virtue.

Arachne, age 63 – MT 6
Carmen, 47 – MT 7
Fedora, 33 – Ride 6*
Solomon, 67 – MT 7
Vocis, 54 – Finesse 6*, MT 6
Vulcanus, 38 – MT 6
Roberto, 43 – Single Weapon 6

Bernhard, 41 – Craft: Blacksmith 6, Single Weapon 7+2
Alexandro, 60 – Leadership 8+2, Single Weapon 7+2
Moses, 100 – Area Lore 6, Brawl 7, Profession 6, Single Weapon 6
Johan, 27 – Brawl 7+2*, Profession 6*

Alejandro, 32 – Single Weapon 6+2
Liberto, 34 – Bows 7
Teodor, 40 – Brawl 7+2
Fausto, 45 – Single Weapon 8
Allen Girard, 37 – Single Weapon 6
Albert, 42 – Profession 6
Nicasi, 47 – Profession 6

By my count, that's fourteen 6s, eight 7s, and two 8s, ignoring Puissant. With only one exception (Johan), all of these characters are in their 30s or older. The youngest non-Johan character with more than one 6+ is Bernhard at 41 years old and the only character with more than two 6+ is the 100-year-old Moses, who has four. Alexandro, at 60 years old, is the only character with more than one 7+. I propose that these numbers give us a rough baseline for Abilities in this saga, with Johan as something of an outlier (it's good to be the SG :wink: ).

Now contrast this baseline with the non-magus characters you've drafted. Adan is 32, with Profession 8+2 and Theology 6. Donna is 46, with Craft 11+2(!!!), Guile 8, and Leadership 7. The latest version of Marius is 36, with Teaching 7+2 and five more Abilities at 7.

I realize all of your characters are 100% valid. All the rules and house rules were followed. My concern is they don't fit the power level that's established for this saga. Based on the existing characters, the troupe has established certain benchmarks for what constitutes a high Ability level and a 'maximum' number of high Abilities. This wasn't intentional (though Marko probably influenced it), but it happened. What I would like to see is for you to bring your characters more in line with what we've established. In Adan's case, it's probably just a matter of adding 10 years to his age and spreading all those extra xp around in other Abilities that make him more well-rounded. In Donna's case, I think that Craft should come down to 8, maybe 9, the other two high Abilities should be no higher than 6, and the extra xp should be spread around elsewhere.

With Marius...I don't know. I know Fixer suggested having several 7s, so you're just reacting to our feedback (see 'good sport', above :slight_smile:). It looks like Marko also approves. I personally think Marius needs to be toned down a lot and made several years older. He could also use more social skills so he's useful outside the classroom. But I could be alone in those opinions (and several others mentioned here), in which case I'll shut up (I know, finally) and accept the judgement of the troupe. Never let it be said that Tremere are not team players. :mrgreen:

I am all good with the Teaching total being where it is at. I set Draganna close to the same total. I reason that with the proper facilities (such as a lab with a Teaching bonus), either one could teach an ability to to a score of 4 in two seasons or a 5 in three. Marius is an encyclopedia of Arcane Lore. I can dig that. Though I might suggest turning a few 7's into 6's and boning up on some more lore and flesh out the living encyclopedia concept.
With Draganna, I saw that I could not compete with Marius on Lore, so I focused on Languages. I am thinking I should spread out into some contemporary languages (French, English, German, etcetera).
My suggestion...
Keep your age the same. Keep Teaching and Philosophiae at 7. Keep in mind this makes you a serious modern philosopher. The Lore scores at 7 don't worry me. I will mention that I think Divine & Infernal Lore will not come into play as often as Faerie or Magic Lore.
Hmmm...
Maybe drop Artes Liberales down to 6, keep Greek drop Coptic/Egyptian, drop DL & IL to 5 each. Redistribute 155xp; Profession-Scribe 3, Mythic Europe Lore 4, a more specific Area Lore 5.
Or whatever.
I can teach you languages and you can teach me lore. We should both spend our free time studying and teaching each other.

And Johan is totally legit! He has affinities in both of those abilities.

Agree with the good sport, especially seeing how I bothered him.
And I often feel like that guy too, despite not being my intention :-/

Well, take in mind he almost never posts his age :wink: I have to ask for it (and other relevant details such as might) every time :laughing:
I mean, this guy is 36???? :open_mouth: In my mind's eye, he was about 45 :laughing:

But yes, good idea. Leave the skills as they are, add some years, put the extra XP in social skills.

Or do as marko says, the 2 are equivalent in spirit, although I'd decrease teaching to 6 and keep AL 7, the reverse of what he suggests :unamused: :laughing:

Silveroak, you should list your drive clearly, and add specialties. You always forget specialties :wink:

IIRC, just like Silveroak's 12 years old guy with Woodworking :wink: Although Johan is more than twice his age.

Also, as I said before, Tainted with Evil isn't really going to work. Solomon would never allow someone with that flaw to reside in the covenant.

I agree. Tainted with Evil must go. Might I suggest Warped by Magic as a replacement? It is deceptively beneficial.

The only reason I raised him from 35 to 36 is so I could get those requested level 7 abilities. I am really wanting him to stay that age, because one of his key requirements for moving will be a Longevity Ritual. I will work on the rest.

v. 3 still 36
Characteristics
Int 2 Per 1
Pre 2 Com 3
Str -2 Sta -1
Dex -1 Quick -1

Virtues
wealthy(major +3)
good teacher(minor +1)
mild aging(minor +1)
puissant teaching(minor +1)
arcane lore(minor +1)
educated(minor +1)
hermetic experience(minor +1)
priveledged upbringing(minor +1)

Flaws
dark secret(major -3)
motion sickness(minor -1)
driven(major -3)
magical fascination(minor -1)
visions(minor -1)
no sense of direction(minor -1)

Abilities
Romanian 5
Area Lore -Eastern Muldavia 5
Guile 2
Stealth 2
Survival 2
Latin 5
Artes Liberales 6
teaching 7+2
Magic Lore 7
Faerie Lore 7
Infernal Lore 5
intrigue 3
medicine 5
Apothocary 4
chirurgy 1
Arabic 4
Philosphae 7
Profession -scribe 5
Classic Greek 4
intrigue 1
Mythic Europe Lore 2

I like the human encyclopedia angle. You be Lore man, I'll be Language Lady :laughing:
Remember, we were trained to be Tremere utilities. We learn what they need us to learn.

HOWEVER...
This is an error on my part. Fightmaster, I am letting Silveroak slide on a grandfather clause and closing the loophole. This loophole being the application of the Wealthy Virtue.
Normal advancement rules are 15xp, 10 if Poor & 20 if Wealthy, and 30 if a Magus. I bumped it up to base 20, 15 for the Poor & 30 for the Wealthy, and 40 for a magus. It looks fine, but the ratio for Wealthy is off. The standard is base 1, Poor 2/3, Wealthy 1&1/3, Magus 2, Wealthy worth 2/3 of magus. The HR ratio is Base 1, Poor 3/4, Wealthy 1&1/2, Magus 2, Wealthy worth 3/4 of magus.
Another way to look at it. Applying it from age 5 to 35, the standard has Poor subtracting -150xp and Wealthy adding +150xp. Basically 50xp per virtue/flaw point. The HR has Poor worth -150xp, but Wealthy worth +300xp. Te 2:1 ratio for magi v mundane works, and the Poor Flaw is balanced. Wealthy throws it all off.
Henceforth, those with the Wealthy Virtue receive 25xp per year of advancement/development in age. This is worth a bonus of +150xp over a 30 year span, and brings the ratio to base 1, Poor 3/4, Wealthy 1&1/4, Magus 2, Wealthy worth 2/3 of Magus.

Oh, sorry :frowning:

Given a few years, he could increase his AL and philosophiae, and create formulaes, increasing his usefulness to the covenant.
You might want to decrease teaching to 7 and take Divine lore 5 (and, say, increase chirurgy or intrigue to 2) with the points

actually teaching is 7+2-I cut and pasted again without editing...