Master list : virtue and flaw

I agree that it does make character creation more complex but after that the SG will only need to remember the Virtues, Flaws and specific rule elements actually used by the player group. In my experience, that is usually a far more manageable amount.

I think it's a fallacy actually that the SG needs to know all the V&F. If the player finds something he wants to do, he can bring it to the table and the troupe can thrash it out. There are a ton of V&F (and Qualities and Inferiorities... and Methods and Powers) that I simply have no current working knowledge of. I don't need to. I've probably read them. I can probably find them (though as noted above I did have to use the all-seeing index file last night). But I've overwritten that memory space with more useful stuff.

Now, if a player wanted to use the infernal Methods and Powers I'd read up on them and make sure I had a reasonable idea of what they actually meant. It's the same thing I did for the Goetic Arts for a current NPC. Beyond that, it's down to the player to use them, not me. As long as I know which realm something's aligned to and broadly what it does, I'm happy for the player to actually "play" that set of rules.

As a GM with players who are more interested in the characters rather than the rules (i.e.: by and large, most of them simply don't read rulebooks), I find that I really do need a rough idea what all (or at least most) of the virtues and flaws do, if only that I can then point them in the right direction when they say "I really want my character to be...",

To that end I would really love to see a much abbreviated V&F list, and one way that could be done while still keeping everyone happy is to generalise a lot of the V&F, but incorporate some tailoring or customisation.

So, by way of example, the "Character flaw" flaw could be "When taken select an appropriate character flaw and note it down..." etc - this sort of approach gets rid of dozens of "personality trait" V&F while still retaining the flexibility (perhaps even incorporating more flexibility). Similarly, most Supernatural V&F could be replaced with a two virtues (a Major one and a Minor one) "Select a Supernatural Ability, you have a score of one in this Ability, and may advance it normally" and woosh, there goes another thirty or so from the list, etc

By working in this way the rules get easier (because a lot of V&F work in the same way now), the list is shorter (and easier to comprehend), and there is much less book-flipping generally,

Probably a reasonable suggestion. Unless the particular Virtue/ability has discrete conditions then you could probably get away with a fairly generic approach. I think anything that says "You gain the Supernatural Ability xxxx at score 1, see page nn for details" is fair game. But you'd only end up recording what your particular Virtue paid for anyway, so I don't see that we'd be gaining that much.

Personality-wise, I'm happy for a system to break these out as long as it has something worthwhile to say that helps either me to play that character or the storyguide to present appropriate challenges and rewards.

While some efficiencies can be made, I still maintain that I don't find the number of V&F a particular burden, but then as stated I don't find I need to know them all inside out. Others may differ.

You'd lose a lot of the double-bookeeping and reading (at the moment each supernatural virtue gets a bit in the virtues list and another bit in the abilities list! But this way you only need to read one description, and then browse the Abilities listing),

So you could simply refer the player to the Abilities list,

I'm not convinced that the current list offers anything of this sort, but nevertheless...

Consider this, if you got to pick your own traits they would have real meaning to you, as you could pick your own descriptor for exactly what you want,

Personally I would like to see Personality Flaws being consolidated into making sense with the Personality Traits (i.e.: perhaps a Minor Personality Flaw should grant the Trait at a minimum of level 3, and a Major Flaw at a minimum of level six),

Again, you get some consistency (they all work in exactly the same way - at the moment some have rules, some don't and there is no convergence in exactly what they are worth as a consequence (and I still have no idea what happens when a personality trait is in direct opposition to a personality flaw...),

I run those as a Minor gives a trait at +-4, Major at +-5 and Greater as +-6. As a minimum, some flaws needs greater number to properly represent itself. If you want it simple and close to RAW, make minor at +-4 and Major at +-6.

very good idea as yours, Gareth_Lazelle. Maybe a virtue Supernatural power minor or major will be simple : it grants access to a supernatural power. And that's all...But maybe it lacks a category of ability, supernatural powers, with their special mechanism unified one for all (another subject, i know... :wink:)...
I agree with you about players who do not read the rules (mine too) and then, because they failed to optimize their character creation, are disappointed. And I can not help because there are too many flaws / virtues.
However, I like the flexibility of the system, which means that we can win or lose the flaws and virtues over time. And on reflection, this is not so the proliferation of flaws and virtues that ennoys me, as you say Mark, are quite accessible and limited by their use by players, but I think the fact that in each supplement, many new elements appear which are difficult to digest, beacause of new mechanism they introduce, new mechanism that are sometimes far from the core rules...In addition, certain things seem illogical, as the fact that certain flaws and virtues provide access to the arts ? Ablating, binding, commanding example. What ? You know an Hermes Magus who need an virtue for each art ? I do not see the point... And what the need ? Magus can work magic beacause of the gift and education. Priest can bless beacause of true faith and education. Goethist could know the infernal arts because of an infernal pact and education... But what disappoints me the most: the lack of harmonization at all Ars Magica 5, and the flaws and virtues are just one example.
I think there is a real problem of definition of what virtue and flaws are really, and that it has become a catch-all for everything...In the core book, this definition was clear....With all the supplements, it becomes more and more obscure.

PS : i know that my criticism is a bit hard. But it's really beacause i found the 5th edition really valuable and that i love it, and i waited with great impatience the developpement of infernal, divine, etc. I think the result is great and very interesting about the background in general (even if i prefer the third edition faery background), but that the rules are not at the top and not serve the background, making it difficult operating. So i do not use it...A shame...

Embitterment should be a major virtue and not a minor.

I agree with that idea very strongly. The lack of integration between Personality Flaws and Traits is very confusing for new players and in practice not even entirely clear to veterans. There's just no need for two systems in parallel for defining a character's personality.

By the way, I updated this list and Atlas has posted it to their website:

atlas-games.com/pdf_storage/ArM5VFIndex.pdf

Hope it continues to be useful!

EDIT: Whoops, sorry I didn't get the fix to Embitterment in this revision, but I've fixed the master file for next time.

Thanks Erik :slight_smile:

Xavi

Up for this wonderful thread and list.

Sorry for the threadomancy all, but I just noticed that official list is more than a year out-of-date. To rectify this oversight:

Major General Virtues:
License of Absence – TC, pg 26
Magian Lineage – TC&TC, pg 92
Minor General Virtues:
Educated (Islamic) – TC&TC, pg 15
Magian Lineage – TC&TC, pg 92
Proven Raider – RM, pg 18
Templar Prestige – TC, pg 125
Trained Assassin – TC&TC, pg 164
Major Hermetic Virtues:
Hermetic Realm Initiation – TC&TC, pg 44
Mythic Blood: Rostam – TC&TC, pg 157
Scientates Suleimanis – TC&TC, pg 44
True Understanding of the Realms – LoH, pg 15
Minor Hermetic Virtues:
Confluence of the Realms – LoH, pg 14
Insight of the Realms – LoH, pg 15
Major Mystery Virtues:
Gifts of Gayomart – TC&TC, pg 100
Saoshyant’s Elixer – TC&TC, pg 99
Minor Mystery Virtues:
Blessing of (Ameshaspand) – TC&TC, pg 98
Mazdean Alchemy – TC&TC, pg 98
Mazdean Astrology – TC&TC, pg 98
Righteousness of the Wise – TC&TC, pg 99
Free Social Status Virtues:
Amazon – RM, pg 18
Amazon Sorceress – RM, pg 19
Court Wizard – RM, 67
Muspelli – RM, 83
Mustajib – TC&TC, pg 164
Sahir – TC&TC, pg 30
Soqotran Sorcerer – RM, pg 114
Templar Confrere or Consoeur – TC, pg 124
Templar Servant – TC, pg 124
Major Social Status Virtues:
Archieunuch – TSE, pg 38
Commander – TC, pg 125
Lasiq – TC&TC, pg 164
Senior Clergy – TC, pg 25
Senior Soqotran Sorcerer – RM, pg 114
Spirit Ally – RM, pg 116
Minor Social Status Virtues:
Brother-Knight – TC, pg 123
Brother-Priest – TC, pg 123
Brother-Sergeant – pg 124
Clerk – TC, pg 26
Eunuch – TSE, pg 38
Fida’I – TC&TC, pg 164
Mazdean Priest – TC&TC, pg 93
Office Holder – TC, pg 125
Priest – TC, pg 26
Religious – TC, pg 26
Templar Administrator – TC, pg 125
Templar Specialist – TC, pg 124
Vizier – TC&TC, pg 30
Free Supernatural Virtues:
Commanding Aura – TC, pg 26
Major Supernatural Virtues:
Adjuration – TC&TC, pg 96
Dream Interpretation – TC&TC, pg 96
External Vis – TC&TC, pg 79
Greater Power (Command the Masses) – TC&TC, pg 144
Hex – RM, pg 95
Independent Solomonic Magic – TC&TC, pg 44
Invocation – TC&TC, pg 96
Invocation of Names of Power – TC&TC, pg 30
Knowledge of True Names – TC&TC, pg 93
Martial Connection to Magic – RM, pg 18
Olympian Pact – TSE, pg 126
Potent Sorcery – RM, pg 11
Sihr – TC&TC, pg 30
Sjonhverfing – RM, 96
Solomonic Alchemy – TC&TC, pg 30
Solomonic Astrology – TC&TC, pg 30
Solomonic Physic – TC&TC, pg 30
Solomonic Storytelling – TC&TC, pg 30
Solomonic Travel – TC&TC, pg 30
Spadomur – RM, 97
Spontaneous Solomonic Spells – TC&TC, pg 44
Storm’s Eye – RM, pg 98
Strong Magic – RM, pg 18
Submitted Qareen – TC&TC, pg 75
Summon Animals – RM pg 99
Symbolic Understanding – RM, pg 19
Threads of Fate – RM, pg 100
Valgaldrar – RM, pg 102
Wildfire – RM, pg 103
Winter’s Breath – RM, pg 104
Wonders – TC&TC, pg 97
Minor Supernatural Virtues:
Elysian Ecstasy – TSE, pg 126
External Vis – TC&TC, pg 79
Faerie Sight – TC&TC, pg 79
Faerie Speech – TC&TC, pg 79
Folk Magic – TSE, pg 123
Generous Master – RM, pg 68
Greater Magical Defenses – RM, pg 11
Knowledge of True Names – TC&TC, pg 93
Lesser Craft Magic – RM, pg 11
Reputation as Confidence – TC&TC, pg 79
Yatu Magic – TC&TC, pg 30

Major General Flaws:
Monstrous Appearance – TC&TC, pg 80
Minor General Flaws:
Castratus – TSE, pg 38
Dhimmi – TC&TC, pg 15
Regular – TC, pg 27
Major Hermetic Flaws:
Constant Expression – LoH, pg 16
Major Personality Flaws:
Rebellious – TSE, pg 120 & TC&TC, pg 144
Minor Personality Flaws:
Rebellious – TSE, pg 120 & TC&TC, pg 144
Major Social Status Flaws:
Amazonian Slave – RM, pg 19
Major Story Flaws:
Bitter Mistress – RM, pg 19
Dark Secret – TC, pg 27
Known Wizard – RM, pg 12
Pagan – RM, pg 12
Patron – TC&TC, pg 31
Prolonged Apprenticeship – RM, pg 19
Minor Story Flaws:
(Realm) Spirit Companion – TC&TC, pg 31
Beloved Slave – RM, pg 19
Friendly Mistress – RM, pg 19
Magic Aura Temple – RM, pg 19
Patron – TC&TC, pg 31
Major Supernatural Flaws:
Bound Spells – TC&TC, pg 31
Frail Magic – RM, pg 19
Horrifying Appearance (Snake Legs) – TSE, pg 120
Horrifying Appearance (Three Heads) – RM, pg 83
Intangible Flesh – TC&TC, pg 80
Sovereign Ward – TC&TC, pg 80
Vulnerability (Tree) – RM, pg 117
Minor Supernatural Flaws:
No Magical Defenses – RM, pg 12
Traditional Ward – TC&TC, pg 80
Vulnerable to Folk Tradition (Islamic) – TC&TC, pg 80

Sticky?

Sorry for Threadomancy, but I figured this thing was about due for another update... :blush:

Major Child, Supernatural Virtues:
Protection from Diseases – Apprentices, pg 12
Minor Child Virtues:
Boundless Energy – Apprentices, pg 11
Deft Characteristic – Apprentices, pg 11
Grows Quickly – Apprentices, pg 11
Inconspicuous – Apprentices, pg 11
Minor General Virtues:
Craft Guild Training – Grogs, pg 74
Ferocity – Grogs, pg 74 (animals only)
Forgettable Face – Grogs, pg 74
Hermetic Experience – Grogs, pg 75
Jack-of-All-Trades – Grogs, pg 75
Master of (Form) Creatures – Grogs, pg 75
Mild Aging – Grogs, pg 76
Pack Leader/Natural Leader – Grogs, pg 76
Minor Mystery Virtues:
Bright Eyes – AtD, pg 57
Eyes of Theseus – AtD, pg 57
Invasive Eyes – AtD, pg 57
Free Social Status Virtues:
Almogavar – Grogs, pg 74
Apprentice – Apprentices, pg 9
Orphan – Apprentices, pg 9
Storm Wizard – AtD, pg 130
Minor Social Status Virtues:
Almogaten – Grogs, pg 74
Brother Chaplain – AtD, pg 82
Brother Knight – AtD, pg 83
Brother Sergeant – AtD, pg 83
Domestic Animal – Grogs, pg 74 (animals only)
Master of Kennels – Grogs, pg 76
Turb Trained – Grogs, pg 76
Free Supernatural Virtues:
Commanding Aura – Antagonists, pg 38
Major Supernatural Virtues:
Ban Art – AtD, pg 134
Dhampir – AtD, pg 133
Scry Art – AtD, pg 133
Slay Art – AtD, pg 134
Minor Supernatural Virtues:
(Foe) Art – AtD, pg 133
Minor Enchantments – Grogs, pg 76
Mythic Farrier – Grogs, pg 76
Storm Calling – AtD, pg 130
Storm Fighting – AtD, pg 130
Storm Riding – AtD, pg 130

Major Child Flaws:
Turbulence Prone – Apprentices, pg 12
Major Child Personality Flaws:
Know-It-All – Apprentices, pg 11
Minor Child Flaws:
Late Bloomer – Apprentices, pg 12
Minor Child Personality Flaws:
Bully – Apprentices, pg 11
Dependence – Apprentices, pg 11
Major Child Story Flaws:
Infatuation – Apprentices, pg 11
Minor Child Story Flaws:
Infatuation – Apprentices, pg 11
Major General Flaws:
Frail – Apprentices, pg 12
The Falling Evil – Grogs, pg 79
Minor General Flaws:
Careless with (Ability) – Grogs, pg 77
Craving for Travel – Grogs, pg 78
Curse of Slander – Grogs, pg 78
Devoted Parent – Grogs, pg 79
Fish Out of Water (Terrain) – Grogs, pg 80
Flashbacks – Grogs, pg 79
Hallucinations – Grogs, pg 80
Independent Craftsman – Grogs, pg 81
Jinxed – Grogs, pg 81
Lingering Injury – Grogs, pg 81
Low Tolerance – Apprentices, pg 13
Master of None – Grogs, pg 81
Night Terrors – Grogs, pg 82
Poor Living Conditions – Grogs, pg 83
Primitive Equipment – Grogs, pg 83
Raised in the Gutter – Grogs, pg 83
Restricted Learning – Grogs, pg 83
Rolling Stone – Grogs, pg 83
Savantism – Grogs, pg 84
Shortness of Breath – Apprentices, pg 13
Sleep Disorder – Grogs, pg 84
Slow Reflexes – Apprentices, pg 13
Stuck in His Ways – Grogs, pg 84
Uncertain Faith – Grogs, pg 84
Uncontrollable Strength – Grogs, pg 85
Uninspirational – Grogs, pg 85
Unlucky – Grogs, pg 85
Unspecialized – Grogs, pg 85
Worthless Abilities – Grogs, pg 86
Major Hermetic Story Flaw:
Suppressed Gift – Apprentices, pg 13
Major Personality Flaws:
Compulsive Lying – Grogs, pg 78
Minor Personality Flaws:
Compulsive Lying – Grogs, pg 78
Foreign Upbringing – Grogs, pg 80
Gullible – Grogs, pg 80
Imaginary Folk Tradition Vulnerability – Grogs, pg 80
Magical Fascination – Grogs, pg 81
Pack Mentality – Grogs, pg 82
Weak Personality – Grogs, pg 85
Minor Social Status Flaws:
Bastard – Apprentices, pg 9
Companion Animal – Grogs, pg 78 (animals only)
Major Story Flaws:
Abandoned Apprentice – Apprentices, pg 12
A Deal with the Devil – Grogs, pg 78
Pagan – Grogs, pg 82
Major Supernatural Flaws:
Supernaturally Fragile – Antagonists, pg 122
Minor Supernatural Flaws:
(Realm) Stigmatic – Grogs, pg 83
Bound to (Role) Role – Grogs, pg 76
Broken Vessel – Grogs, pg 77
Curse of Slander – Grogs, pg 78
Cursed Guile – Grogs, pg 78
Font of Knowledge – Antagonists, pg 109
Manifest Sin – Grogs, pg 81
Necessary (Realm) Aura for (Ability) – Grogs, pg 82
Susceptible to Warping – Grogs, pg 84
Viaticarus – Grogs, pg 85
Warped by Magic – Grogs, pg 85

I believe this list is now up-to-date except that I failed to include "Attribute Duplication" since I wasn't quite sure where to put it... :blush:

I updated the PDF and sent it to Atlas, so it should be available soon. (I called Attribute Duplication a Special Faerie Character Virtue.)

The current version I have (aAugust 16, 2010) has some issues:

  • you cannot search it,
  • you cannot copy its text.
    I don't know if it was done on purpose or if it's accidental.

Another issue, if you would be so kind, would be to separate Supernatural Virtues into Powers, Methods, Abilities and others. It's not always easy to find which of them are useful for a companion or grog.

As it stands, it is already immensely useful. Thanks for maintaining it.

Thank you.

Yes, the 2010 version was saved differently than the 2009 version was. It seems like the characters were saved as images instead of characters in this version, or something like that.

Chris

Certainly not intentional! Strange. I checked the pdf and I can search it just fine. If you send me your email address, I'll mail the file to you so you can check it as well.

That is an interesting addition. The books don't categorize them that way, but maybe something like a footnote mark would make that clear. Are you thinking that you want to know the Virtues that are associated with an Ability/Art score?

Sure thing!