Metodicus's huge list of Spells for moderation

lol yes, I didn't see that, despite the fact we had the same problem in Ad Fons, with a spell inspired by phillipus :laughing:

Thus, Flaws of the WeaponSmith should be lvl 30, and your sight-based spell should be lvl 35.

My point was, such a spell allows you to affect a Group of metal individuals, each individual being up to the basic individual for PeTe spells.
BUT you can't just sum up the mass of disparate metal things and consider it as "one individual".

Reasonning like you do would be akin to say that a PeCo individual spell designed to affect a Giant (+4 sizes) could affect 4 different individual humans. It can't. You'll need a T: Group spell for that.

Thus, if you want to affect 4 guys in suits of armor, you'll need a T: Group spell, even if the combined mass of their armor is lower that the mass a single PeTe spell can affect.

Furthermore, to affect 4 guys out of a dozen you will need to bribe your SG into letting you use a Special target, as only 4 guys standing seperately from others would pose a Group. (I generally accept chocolate and cash deposits, but you would have to check with your SG regarding his own policies. :wink: )

To hit just any 4 people out of a crowd, I'd require +1 more magnitude over Group and a Finesse check, personally.

Sodalis Metodicus, others. The spell above reminded me of a discussion in our group about Personal range spells affecting caster's environment. The discussion was result of how Personal range is defined in the RAW: "The spell only affects casting magus or things that he is wearing or carrying. The target is thus never larger than individual."

To my deep despair the camp that said: "Spells with Personal range cannot affect things outside the caster, his clothes and carried equipment." won. Since I haven't seen any such claims here, am I correct in assuming that you don't think so?

(The only official Personal range spell that has effect outside the caster and his clothes we have found is 'The Last Flight of the Phoenix' from HoH: Societates. Our current interpretation is that the spell is broken and does not follow official rulings. Also following our ruling I have to rule that "Circling Flame of Protection" is also therefore broken.)

Didn't see that.
But there's a raw spell that support your sodales ruling, which I happen to agree with:

In the same fashion, IMO, Circling Flame of Protection should be R: Touch.
Well done!

About "Last Flight of the Phoenix", it isn't broken IMO, but works in a different fashion of the 2 aforementionned spells. You'll notice it has 2 additionnal magnitudes for "extra size", which I'd let do the listed effect.

I think that such spells can affect things as they attempt to penetrate within the caster, his clothes, and carried equipment. So the above spell sets anything that attempts to on fire, CWoP brushes it away with a gale of wind*, and so on.

The Last Flight of the Pheonix transforms the person into supernatural fire. The transformation only affects the person, so it's Personal range. Once it exists, the supernatural fire does its own thing - exploding; this isn't part of the spell's Range. Effects can spread out of the casting range once started. In the same way a Rego summing spell of Voice range can be maintained even once the summoned creatures are no longer within voice of the caster and so on, in accordance with the spell's duration.

Edit: * But is range: Touch. There goes my theory... hmmm...

Flaming Skin (CrIg20)
[i]Base 15: create intensity 15 flame in unual shape, Personal+0, Diameter+1, Individual I+0

The spell immolates the caster of the spell, bursting +15 intensity flames out of her skin.[/i]

What happens if Billy the Kid, your ordinary grog, touches caster's skin?

According to our current interpretation of the definition of Personal Range: Nothing - the spell does not affect Billy. Do you interpret it the same way?

If you read the spell its target is group and not individual. If you once got the group target you may use the spell on many targets based on weights given by the guidelines.

The fire burns him. Touch range would mean the caster use this spell on another person (and would burn himself instantly when he releases the spell :slight_smile:). Range shows the distance to where the caster casts the spell and not the range of its effect.
Similarly the sight range of this spell wouldn't mean the flames fill the whole earth and sky within sight.

I think we should think on the rules this way: how do they help the game? If you use leap of homecoming or 7 league stride which have personal range and use appropriate requisites even your clothes jump with you. It would be silly results getting the rules to the letter.

I don't think this is right.

What would happen if a Personal Range effect turned the caster into a bear? Would no-one but himself perceive the change, or feel the swipe of his paw?

Personal is just the Range to the immediate Target. Therefore, yes the immediate Target of a Personal Range effect must be the caster. However, other characters can still be affected by whatever effect is cast on the Target/caster. They can see the transformation of the caster, they can feel the heat of the flame, or whatever.

Although, the effect does need to penetrate other character's Magic Resistance to affect them. So if the grog, Billy the Kid, had Magic Resistance and the casting of Flaming Skin had insufficient Penetration to defeat this Resistance, then he would not get burned.

I agree with you Sodalis Birbin, but my troupe does not - or actually some have taken the easy way out and don't voice their opinions.

Personal range does include your clothing and carried things. Therefore even in our Sagas those spells do transport clothes and stuff without requisites when Magus uses either of those spells. But I guess you ment what if we used the rules to the letter, the magus would have to use requisites to transport his clothes, shoes, purse and vis with him. Even we aren't that stupid. :slight_smile:

Yes, the target is group (+1 mag for size), and thus, it affects a large group. The number of targets is based on this, not on the cumulative weight of their equipment: So long as it is below the PeTe size guidelines, it is destroyed.
I don't know if I really clear here... What I just mean to say is that you can't say "I'll destroy the armor of 10 different guys with a T: Ind PeTe spell, because the cumulative weight of their armor is below the weight of a base Te Individual".

This would be OK, because of the base 15 guideline "Create a fire doing +15 damage in an unnatural shape, such as in a ring or sheet, or covering an item", which specifically covers this kind of thing.
With a base 10 "Create a fire doing +15 damage" guideline, however, this wouldn't work, instead hurting you each round.

The base 15 guideline is, compared to the base 10 guideline, exactly like an extra magnitude for this kind of thing. Mechanically, this works exactly as having the R: Touch to the circling winds of protection.

Check HoH: S for Wizard’s Leap :wink:

Self Immolation (CrIg15)
[i]Base 10: create +15 Intensity flame, Personal+0, Diameter+1, Individual I+0

Caster creates a fire (individual) on himself which burns at +15 Intensity.[/i]

Are you saying that this spell would not burn others touching the fire, even though the fire burns caster's clothes and equipment? .. or what are you saying? You can't be saying that the spell would just cause a serious case of heartburn. :wink:

What if the caster used Individual III+2 instead of Individual I to create larger flames? (That is twice enlarged Individual)
edited: typo from last sentence.

Again: the spell in question has target Group (+2 mags) and not Ind with size modifier. It is able to affect more than 10 items.
Read Targets and Sizes on the page 113.

IF the target catches fire, then the guys touching him would be burned by this secondary, non-magical fire, just like if the target of a BoAF catches fire, people touching him will be burned.
This is not an effect on the spell, but secondary effects.

This spell is just a PoF aimed at yourself. Would you say that a PoF burns its victim AND everyone touching him?

See "Last Flight of the Phoenix" for this.
This would hurt the caster, and people around him.

Vade Retro, 4th Ed!!! :laughing: I keep forgeting this, and I'm not the only one :laughing:

And sorry, I hadn't understood :blush:
But, if you refer to the Targets and Sizes then, it seems that we agree on the Group target.

Yes, and those secondary fires are non magical and thus Parma doesn't protect from them.

No, I am saying that Pilum of Flame burns anyone who touches the flame. Are you saying that if there is a horde of bees flying your way and you toss a PoF at the swarm, only one bee falls down dead? I didn't think so. We talked about Target and Victim in Wards and Penetration thread a while back but as a quick recap: Target of Creo Ignem is the fire, Victim of the spell is whatever that fire burns.

I guess the difference becomes clearer by comparing the two spells below and consider the base individual of Creo Ignem spells. Base Individual for Creo Ignem in RAW is large campfire. I (and my troupe) consider large campfire to be about pace diameter flame.

Sphere of Flame (CrIg20)
[i]Base 10: +15 Intensity Flame, Touch+1, Momentary+0, Individual I+0

The Maga collects heat and flame to her fingertips into one pace diameter sphere of flame and uses it to burn anything inside that sphere.[/i]

Burst of Flame (CrIg15)
[i]Base 10: +15 Intensity Flame, Personal+0, Momentary+0, Individual I+0

The Maga collects heat and flame inside her body until it explodes out of her up to foot away from her skin causing +15 Intensity burns to anyone and thing near her. It also causes damage to the Maga and her equipment unless they are protected by something like Ward Against Heat and Flames.[/i]

Both spells create the same amount of flames at same intensity, but to hit anything with Burst of Flame the maga in question must be ready to hug her possible victim(s) - with Sphere of Flame she can reach out with her hand and hit a target up to pace away from her fingertips. Both spells are able to kill thousands of victims, not just one victim "Individual" suggests with quick glance. Lots of ants fit in a pace diameter fire.

Yes, I know about Individual and their increased size - I do play a Creo Ignem Tremere in one of our Sagas. :slight_smile: I just wanted to see how you thought it works. Thank you for your patience Sodalis Fixer. It seems that we think quite much alike each other about this matter but our opinions are not fully harmonious.

Alike, but not fully, no :laughing: :wink:

For exemple, I wouldn't allow your Burst of Flame to hit magically anyone near the caster, especially not 1 feet away unless you took an additionnal magnitude: Hitting everyone 1 pace away from the spell with a single "ind" target seems to be potentially prone to abuse to me compared to other spells.
You'll notice how the RAW changed on this: Previous BoAF were explosives and could initially hurt more than one person because of such a "radius of effect", while 5th Ed "strikes a single target".

If you took your Burst and enhanced it to Voice range, you'd have a PoF that hurts anyone in a given radius instead of "the individual it hits", and thus, for the same magnitude, a potentially much more efficient spell.
This is not to say your reasonning isn't logical in a strict mechanical manner and that I don't understand it :wink: It's just that we run again into these Target problems, not only in the guidelines, but also in the spells descriptions :laughing:

Oh, by the way, good question on the Bees. Does such a swarm constitutes an Individual or a Group? If you try to affect them through a ReAn spell, what'll you need?

If I remember my 4th edition correctly, BoAF was orange sized sphere of flame and it didn't explode. It just temporarily blinded people near the place it hit with a flash. I don't remember 3rd edition version.

Also, if you think of the base individual of Creo Ignem and increase it's size by one magnitude, the result is a flame of approximately 2 paces in diameter (1 pace radius). If the spell effect is at the center of the caster, it reaches a lot further than a foot from her skin. (not taking into account obese half giant casters;)

Some Math:
Creo Ignem base individual is a large campfire. I think a pace diameter campfire is a large campfire. For simplicity's sake I think campfire as a sphere.
Individual I (+0 Mag) has radius of 0,5 paces and volume of 0,5 cubic paces.
Individual II (+1 Mag) has radius of about 1 pace and volume of about 5,5 cubic paces.
Individual III (+2 Mag) has radius of about 2,4 (lets round it to 2,5) and volume of about 57 cubic paces (65 with rounded radius)

Individual III is equal to basic group or ten Individuals. If you have a pilum of flame with Group target you can normally hit ten people with it. You won't usually hit the same amount of people with a ~2½ pace radius fireball. Therefore I don't think that our area Individual spells are overpowered.

I think each bee as an individual target, but bee individual is a lot smaller than a creo ignem Individual.

ReAn vs Group does the trick. The size of the Group may need to be adjusted up if the bee swarm is humongous. Single ReAn Group is bee swarm equal to mass of ten ponies, the base individual of Animalem spells. Ten ponies is a lot of bees.

And how many bees from the black killer bee swarm does your PoF kill? :wink:

Is a flame up to a large campfire :wink:

However, I would totally agree with a CrIg spell of T: Ind, + 2 mag for size to create a true "fireball", hurting everyone in a given radius.
We just disagree on one thing: The ability of a CrIg spell of base magnitude = Damage - 05 (Like, +15 = mag 10) and T: Individual, to be able to hurt more than one person directly :wink:

And why won't a smaller +1 mag individual do the same, just in smaller scale?

And why won't a base individual do the same? You can burn a lot of food in a campfire at once. (I suck as a cook as you can probably tell:)

Most of the above sounds to me like you are saying "PoF cast at swarm of bees kills/wounds exactly one bee." Which to my ears sounds ... interesting... to put it politely. :wink:

Just as your reasoning sounds to me like "fire a PoF at someone and you'll hurt him and everyone close to him" (your above spell, being given voice range, does just that), which seems equally as wrong.
Same thing goes for most CrIg Individual spells, in fact, you're enhancing them all into aera of effect spells able to hurt more than 1 person without any additional magnitude.

Note also that, mechanically, a swarm of bees would probably, as in most RPGs, be considered to be a single person for purposes of attacks against it, so there would be no problem with it :wink: