Planning a Verditius with Unstructured Caster + Rigid Magic currently, so I’m curious what TeFo combinations have the most versatility options at low levels, in the opinion of the hive mind. I know MuVi can be quite potent, but doesn’t work with purely spontaneous magic, so that’s a no-go, while MuCo, although highly versatile, would keep me from accessing my casting tools, so I’d prefer to avoid that one.
Intellego Vim. I can't count the number of Twilights I've obtained because I didn't have all the spells I needed. Assess the auras... 4 times. Assess vis... 2 spells. See in regios... 4 spells. Detect items, detect active effects, detect might... there's simply too many spells to learn.
But the real advice I'll give you is, you're a Verditius. Fix your problem for formulaic spells with lesser enchanted devices, and forget to build your arts for spontaneous casting - build them to enchant what you want to do next.
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Imaginem has quite a few useful lower level effects: aura of ennobled presence, disguise of the transformed image, invisibility of the standing wizard, and wizard’s sidestep. And there’s quite a few clever tricks you can do – InVi 5 to use your sight at Sight range, for example, to look around a corner or get an overhead viewpoint.
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One thing I'd keep in mind, is that if you are playing a Verditius who's really bad at spellcasting, you may first think about which TeFo combinations are great for enchament, optimizing for the Verditius' strength rather than his weakness.
That said, at low levels I think that MuIm can be extremely versatile, though you are limited to effectively changing perceptions - then again, you are virtually unlimited in how you can change them. ReTe is another extremely versatile combination, in that it allows you to manipulate all sorts of solid objects (and with enough Finesse, make them from available materials).
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Most versatile to do what?
Combat (attack and defense)?
Build and support your covenant?
Discover and harvest vis?
Each combination can be useful for a number of uses. And sometimes it is not just the Arts themselves that create the versatility. Rego Craft magic, for example, is based on a high Per+Finesse total. That is also great for using indirect attack spells like Invisible Sling of Vilano. Rego is also quite useful for travel (teleportation and levitation), defense (move your image or deflect attacks) and wards. So I'd say that a good Rego score can make you versatile.
As mentioned, InVi has many useful low-level spells to find and identify vis. As a Verditius, vis is your lifeblood, since you need it to create enchanted items. Another avenue to obtain vis would be to extract it, so a decent CrVi total might be beneficial (and it's a lab activity instead of a spell, so your Flaws don't hinder you there).
As it was also mentioned, you should not aim at replacing you formulaic spells with spontaneous ones. This will shorten your magus' lifespan because he'll accumulate Warping faster through botches. You should try to create lesser items that you will be able to use in a variety of situations. Again, I think ReTe and InVi are both very good combination.
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Arts: Herbam is very commonly at hand. Auram is everywhere.
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ReVi along with the good Philosophiae you’ll want as a Verditius and a little Artes Liberales you’ll want anyway. A lot of people don’t like dealing with the ReVi stuff, but if you were already looking at MuVi, you might be interested.
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i feel like the only problem with this is that a verditus shouldnt have that much of a problem making these effects as lesser enchantments, like for a starting charecter with unstructured caster theres no real reason to target any higher than level 5, so none of the effects need to be any higher than level 15 even without making any comprimises on parameters and useage, and the bare minimus (0 arts, 2 int, 3 aura, 3 magic theory, 1+specialization craft, no forge companions, no relevent virtues, no lab specialization) already gets you to a lab total of 13
also its kinda weird that amde doesnt mention what forge-companions actually do
Cr/ReHe would be my guess
you can use it to shoot things, vilano style or otherwise
you can use it to fly (while sitting on a chair)
you can use it for defense (big shield)
you can use it to make items intelligently attack people (anything from spoons, to quarterstaffs, to trees)
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You replied to me, so I figure the problem you’re mentioning is with my suggestion. I can cast 100 sponts at home with an average of 1 botch. For that 1 Warping Point I can have 99 lower-level spells at my disposal. I also make sure I’ve got a ReVi spell to activate items with some Mastery in it to use the items I do make. Those items are effects that are more powerful and that I want to cast on the fly rather in advance, things like ReMe effects to be cast in a Divine Aura or ReCo effects to fling people or teleport or PeVi effects to destroy a demon. How long would it take you to make 99 little items? How much vis would it cost? If you’ve made all those, when do you make things like the more powerful stuff I mentioned?
(Of course, skip the ReVi activation spell for the mage being designed here. You just trigger your items normally.)
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yeah i was refering to your post, but i guess i wasnt following what you were saying, because what i assumed was that you were suggesting the use of containers, conduits, suppression and sustainment to get more utility out of your sponts, rather than activating items through revi spells
You get what I’m saying. Obviously I plan to make items for my more powerful effects and even a few low-level ones maximized for penetration, but I don’t want to spend half my character’s life trying to make a million utility items when I could use ReVi to supplement my spont casting and my item usage. Thank you for the advice.
For what it's worth, I'd point out that it's not obvious at all that a botch die is necessarily involved.
First of all, there are ways to remove that last botch die from fatiguing spontaneous magic.
Second, there is no mention that the OP was thinking (only) about fatiguing spontaneous magic; given the specific emphasis on TeFo specialization and low levels, it may very well be that part of the idea was a specialist who does most of his stuff with non-fatiguing spontaneous magic, and only occasionally steps into fatiguing territory. A specialist in a TeFo combination can easily cast 1st magnitude non-fatiguing spells in non-hostile auras, even without any specific Virtues helping. A focused TeFo specialist (Puissant+Affinity in both Te and Fo and a minor Focus covering most of that TeFo combination) can cast 2nd magnitude non-fatiguing spells in non-hostile auras.
To go with the ReTe example, a starting magus with "manipulation of dull matter" (any ReTe spell involving solid stuff, so no summoning/commanding/warding Terram spirits, for example) and Puissant+Affinity in Rego and Terram, can in non-hostile auras, use 2nd magnitude non-fatiguing spontaneous magic to:
- Wield an Invisible Sling
- Ward himself for D:Sun, or a grog he touches for D:Diam, against attacks he is aware of from weapons of metal/stone/etc.
- Open any lock
- Fly around in a large clay pot
- Quarry, and slowly move extremely large blocks of stone
etc.
A starting MuIm specialist without any particular Virtues (just Mu10, Im10, Sta+3) can pull off in non-hostile auras level 4 non-fatiguiging spontaneous magic, and level 5 magic just by adding booming voice and exaggerated gestures. This means he can utterly change the appearance of himself, or a trusted grog, or any object for D:Sun or even D:Moon. But he can also curse someone with a terrible stink or the appearance of leprosy for example. etc.
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I was assuming just that. Imagine spending 99 seasons and 99-198 pawns of vis to prep what I can do straight out of apprenticeship in a season. Now imagine what items I can build while you’re spending all that time and vis.
Oh, certainly. But even if you don’t bypass botch chances, look how little Warping it costs.
As a result, I find I can manage a huge amount of your example ReTe in all Art combinations using ReVi tricks. I do things like casting a light spell ahead of time on a little piece of wood and keep it in a pouch, pulling it out when I need it. I put ReTe (He) on that same piece of wood so I can have my torch fly around ahead of me. So much stuff.
Yes, exactly! All you need is enough ReVi to manage a decent-level Moon version of Maintaining the Demanding Spell, Suppressing the Wizard’s Handiwork 10 levels lower, PeVi against Vim that can take down that maintenance spell (or the suppression), and The Patient Spell 10 levels lower than the maintenance spell. Now you’re golden.
Now, doing those all with sponts is a pain, and you can’t do them Formulaicly. But those could be placed in a Talisman, which can now use Touch on your spells like you can. So you just need 4 effects in your Talisman and then do all your strong/penetrating stuff as items. You could also put the ReVi triggering effect I mentioned in such a Talisman.
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The Enchant Casting Tools Mystery might be more useful, instead of making lesser items, at least for spells you know.
Not for this mage. Look at the combination in the OP:
Unstructured Caster → All formulaic spells need vis.
Rigid Magic –> You cannot use vis when casting spells.
The result is you cannot cast any formulaic or ritual spells, only spontaneous spells. That makes Enchant Casting Tools completely useless. This combination is why I was suggesting putting the effects I was mentioning in a Talisman.
Versatility is a tricky word. The ReVi stuff others have mentioned is challenging to do straight out of gauntlet. A sun duration maintain the demanding spell is 15 levels higher than the spell it is maintaining. So after casting a level 10 spont, you’ve now got to get a casting total of 50 to maintain it. I guess with a minor magical focus controlling spells, an affinity in Rego and Vim, a nice aura and decent die roll you could get to 50 at gauntlet, but that is most of the XP. Maintaining a level 5 spell, 40 is not ridiculous, but still needs that laser focus. If it is known there are a bunch of beginner summae to access, so in the first few seasons the magi could get something to pair with the 13 rego, he could focus on Rego sponts.
Away from ReVi. CrTe is probably the best for combat defensive sponts. Arrow, make a metal shield; Sword, metal shield; pilum, head high wall of earth. Nothing else is as versatile for defence.
If you are combat casting sponts as a non-Diedne, you’ve already lost. 25th level is about the best spont one can get to. In a fight, one level 25 is probably not sweeping the battle field. By the time you’ve cast 5 you are exhausted.
I’d recommend looking at the level 15 and 20 spells in each TeFo combat, and see which ones you find interesting. Then looking at the higher level spells in that TeFo to see which you would put in items.
A Moon version of Maintaining the Demanding Spell is only 10 levels higher than a spell it can maintain, as noted above. Not sure how you got 15.
Now, for this character, yes, you’re dealing with sponts only. So dropping your 50 calculation to the corrected 40, and it’s still really high. That’s why I said putting these in a Talisman, which wouldn’t take a ton of effort, would work really well.
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