Muto Vim - What is Superficial and what is Significant?

I don't want to open a huge can of worms regarding Muti Vim or Vim in general.
I'd just like to know what my esteem colleagues think is covered by the terms SUperficial and Significant.
I'll even ask a specific question, and offer specific info about what we've done before.

It is essentially a quastion of a healing spell. As standard core rules there are T:Ind, but my magus wants to cast at T:Circle. This is the same 'level' in the Target parameter, i.e. changing fro one to the other does not change the overall magnitude of the spell.
Muto Vim can do this, but is this Superficial or Significant?

Core rules list thet Superficial changes may not alter the basic effect. This does not do that, it still heals.
A Significant change may still not change the Tech and Form but may change 1 magnitude. This change does not exceed this.

For comparison a previous saga had a magus cast a trivial Imaginem spell which we made look like A) ANother Form and B) A higher magnitude. This was to fool snooper into thinking there were some high level Ignem traps laying around.
The Troupe ruled it to be too easy of this was merely Superficial, and hence Significant. And also - naturally - two separate MuVi effects.

Any feelings about this?

I call it significant because it changes one of R/D/T. Otherwise Flexible Formulaic Magic gets too devalued i think.

Well, here it´s a matter of just changing how a spell is perceived, i would say A is probably Superficial while B might be significant depending on how big the change in looks is. But running both as significant isn´t a bad thing. I dont think running both as superificial is wrong either though.

I'd say superficial can't change Range, Duration or Target. In fact all superficial should be able to affect is the more cosmetic effects of a spell. It is superficial after all.

Significant would allow you to change a range/duration/target as long as the magnitude bump is within the effect level.

My personal opinion is that changing a target Individual to a target circle is a significant change in the spell, even if the magnitude doesn't move. Its a different spell.

Yes and no. FFM can change the R/D/T one whole magnitude. Making a change of R/D/T wihout changing the magnitude is less. Although we allow FFM to do this as well. BEcause cnanging T from Ind and one up only makes it Part and that's no good - Group would be nice, but no.

Anyway I also tend towards Significant simply because "it can't be too easy"

But then what is Superficial? Is it changing a CrAn spell that creates a cat into creating a dog?

Sophistry. Not allowing the change on the same level just looks ridiculous.

And because of that, if you use FFM, you invent all spells as Target Part. Then you change it either to Individual or Group as you please when casting.

That i can very easily agree with.

Nah, that´s a complete change of effect. That´s potentially beyond Significant even.
With Superficial, i´d say you can get any size, type, colour, appearance you like on the cat as long as it is within the limits of the spell.

Wow, I'm about to agree with direwolf. Let's hope that's not the second sign of the apocalypse, like I thought it was :wink:

Agreed. It skirts RAW, but is much more sensible than the opposite

When the spell is designed, you decide what the cat looks like. A superficial change would be making the black cat white instead.
So, again I agree with Direwolf.

AYEEEE!!! Run for your lives!!!! :laughing:

Yes, this gives me the wiggins as well...

So if I have PeTe spell to destroy a set amount of Stone, can I also destroy 'lesser' materials? Like dirt? But still the same set amount as stone though, even though one normally can affect ten times the mass of dirt as one can stone.
Or does one need Muto Vim to make this change as well?

Some spells are remarkably specific and inflexible, while the guideline allows many different things you need to specify when selecting the formulaic spell.

Others are quite flexible like Imaginem spells to disguise yourself, mentem spells to give orders or rewrite memories. Though some mentem spells can only imbue a certain, fixed emotion in the target, other emorions are other spells.
By the previous reasoning Rising Ire needs a Significant MuVi change to become Rising Passion.

I would say "no" to that. A spell to affect stone affects stone, not everything "up to the level" of stone.


Some spells are less flexible than they could have been, perhaps because the original inventor took avantage of a focus or used experimentation.
But no, as a whole spells are pretty nflexible - that's why we have spontaneous magic.

IMO altering R/D/T is a significant change. RAW states that moving R/D/T one maginitude up or down is significant, and I'd say Touch/Circle is pretty close to this.

But your question about what qualifies as a supernatural change remains unanswered... Your example of cat into dog, is also too much of a change to merely be superficial IMO. Otherwise this might create a (potentially) slippery slope with the option to create shields instead of swords, or shapechange into a dog instead of a wolf.
Cosmetic changes would be accepted as superficial in my saga; "Flames that don't originate from your outstretched hands, but rather from your eyes and open mouth." Maybe greater changes would be accepted as well, but I would be tend to be conservative with my rulings.