New Spell; combat buff

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

Hector's Might
R:Touch D: Diameter T: Individual
ReCo 20

By using this spell the caster is able to make the target a better fighter. This spell offers a bonus to the character's Single Weapon Ability, whether the character has it or not. The magic moves the character's body and limbs, and gives instincts and reactions as if the person had trained extensively in the Ability. Other versions exist which can provide a similar bonus to other combat Abilities.

As this involves complicated movements in a way that is often foreign to the wizard, they need to make a Per + Finesse roll, the degree of success determines the bonus:

Botch -The target suffers a botch on his next combat roll (a botch on defense can be fatal)
0-8 The spell provides no real bonus or penalty
9-11 +1 bonus
12-15 +3 bonus
16+ +5 bonus (the maximum bonus that can be applied)

Base 4 (control large scale movements), R +1, D +1, special effect +2

This is an ideal spell for your average combat encounter, and has the added bonus that it is low enough in level to prevent Warping. Other modifications would be to add 3 magnitudes and increase the Range to Voice and Target to Group so that you can effect the whole Turb of grogs travelling with you ("The Lions of Hector"). Warping would now occur though.

This effect can also be added to an enchanted weapon to give its wielder a similar bonus. The range would be Touch, and you would have to add Uses per day, and possibly Penetration for Magic Resistance of the wielder. Finally, +2 levels per bonus point, up to a maximum bonus of +5.

The bonus is the hardest part to figure in this spell. Initially I was going to simply have it be a +3, but still require a Finesse roll. I prefer the variable bonus now though.

2

How about adding the equivalent of Per + Finesse experience points and requiring concentration from the caster for the bonus to apply?

It should also probably be limited by the caster's actual skill: if you don't know how to fight, you can't control one's movements to make them a better fighter. q.v. the rules in HoH:MC about embedding skills in Automata.

I don't really like spells that essentially grant skills like that.

3

Decent points. The xp might be a more reasonable amount, the main problem is that it is unlikely to provide much of a bonus at all. You would need a 15 Finesse roll to get a +2 bonus on someone with a 0 skill. If they actually have the skill, the xp is likely to be negligible. The Concentration is also a decent idea, meaning the wizard would probably want to make sure they either have Maintaining the Demanding Spell ready so they can attend to other matters. It also works well as a Duration for an item that concentrates for the wielder.

The basis of this spell is the fact that Rego can be used to mimic human craft, combat should be included, though the Finesse rolls are tough. However, embedding human skills is difficult as you pointed out. Considering how many things magic can do, and this doesn't seem to violate any of the Hermetic limits, there porbably should be a way to make this buff work.

4

That's the idea. If they already know how to fight, puppeteering isn't going to help them.

That wouldn't work, it is the attention of the caster that is required to decide what moves to make. There already are a few Rego spells that work like that: the spell might have Sun duration, but the caster need to concentrate to make it do something.

I have two issues with that. First, combat isn't a Craft skill and second, I consider the movement capabilities of Rego separate from the crafting capabilities.

Increase their Str/Dex/Qik, that's the easiest way (which isn't easy).

5

IMO this is a very powerful spell that is not in line with other spells in ArM. I've been seeking a similar effect for a combat-bunny mage I've been trying to build but not having any luck.

Looking at CrCo you have a base of 35 to add +1 to one's DEX- which would add +1 to attack only. And then you'd need another spell to add QIK to give a +1 to defence. This spell is 4 or 5 magnitudes lower and gives a bonus across the entire combat spectrum - a bonus that could be up to 5x higher.

I believe I saw a mention someplace on this board about using MuCo to give a bonus similar to the CrCo spells for a short time but don't remember what the guidelines were.

Similarily when you come to enchant this effect into an item, remember Edge of the Razor is lvl20 and only gives +1 to damage.\

A automatic lathe duplicates human crafting as well - unless the metal decides to move or fight back. Re magic duplicates crafting on inanimate objects that don't move - the spell performs rote tasks in a specific pre-programmed order on an object placed before it. If you are waving a sword at somebody in a rote manner they are going to step around you and get medieval on your back.

I've only thought of two: buff characteristics or bind a spirit/ghost/demon into the sword and use its ability (I think The Infernal allows that - I haven't studied that chapter in depth yet).

However, don't forget the cardinal rule: YMMV.

6

Great point, it seems that raising a stat or making the weapon better might be the best combat buff to work with.

The argument that it is too powerful though doesn't necessarily work for me. If you break it down into what it basically does (control another's movements) that's not too magically complex. The complexity comes from the finesse obviously. Just because it provides a decent bonus or benefit, doesn't mean it needs to be a powerful or difficult spell. Invisibility for example became a lot easier with 4th edition, wheras before it was a high level spell for the large benefit it provided.

However, that is a good point, how this provides a large benefit when in comparison with two other spells that provide a similar bonus but are (legitimately) difficult to perform.

Great point. In all honesty it's looking more and more like that the Duration needs to be Concentration, and that it can't be maintained by another spell or infused into an item that concentrates for it.

AHA! I found something! This is a spell from Ar4, the Lion of the North (I knew I saw a combat buff somewhere). Page 66:

Sure Strike of the Sword
ReCo 20 (Te and/or He Req depending on the weapon used)
R: T D: Conc/Sun (4th Ed rules) T: I

Gives the target a +2 weapon skill bonus with the particular weapon he was holding at the casting of the spell.

So there's a little something to help my case. :confused:

7

I don't think that spell mechanics from 4th edition are a very strong argument - even though earlier edition can give plenty of inspiration the mechanics have changed a lot; and the cleaning and streamlining of the spell guidelines being IMO one of the biggest succesfull efforts of 5th. I'm really not convinced that your project is possible - both in terms of what can be done with ReCo spells (I strongly agree with Fruny that combat skills aren't Crafts and that Rego's ability to move and to Craft are two seperate effects of the same Technique) and in terms of balance.

On the positive note I still find the idea quite interesting - and I might add that a possible alternative avenue might be to enchant and "train" a weapon with the skill in question. I do think this should be game mechanically possible and I would think the game balance much better (thinking of the time needed in the creation process) yet it would still grant you with the neat effect you are questing for. It would also add some nice touch to the game that you'd have to find an accomplished master to train your weapon and that "its" fighting style might come echo him and his life. Again - great story, and roleplaying, potential!

8

I think that, if you're looking for combat bonuses, you should start looking at spells like Gift of the Bear's Fortitude and work from there. Muto rather than Rego. Mentem may also help, as does Intellego (q.v. Shriek of the Impending Shafts).

One difference between crafting and fighting is that with crafting, the caster focuses on the end result, and the magic takes care of how to achieve it (limited by his Finesse), while with fighting, the caster would essentially have to directly focus on the fighter's individual actions, which is why he can only rely on his actual fighting skills (also probably limited by his Finesse).

Regardless, a ReCo spell probably wouldn't stack with the fighter's actual skill, since he'd have to decide whether to let the magic guide his actions, or to fight by himself.

9

Have you read Terry Goodkind's books????
:slight_smile:

If not, and to summarize for those that haven't:

The Sword of Truth:

The Sword was enchanted by powerful wizards with (more of less) the following abilities:
Causes Anger in the holder (Important for the type of Magus using the blade)
Prevents the holder from killing someone he believes is innocent.

These are the surface abilities.
Anyone who can Master the blades power can unlock the rest of its abilities. In the book, thats just one guy (nobody else has the magic anymore)

Kill someone who is innocent (little ambiguous)
Teach someone to fight...so well that you are just about invincible.
Ward against Certain types of Magic.

There are more abilities, but thats the core...
To do this, the Mages created a blade that drew knowledge from the users. Anyone who could not master the blade, transferred their knowledge to the blade.(The exact mechanism is explained, but apparently the knowledge wasn't lost by the individual..just copied) This did cause warping in the user..
Over the three millenium, this knowledge base grew quite expansive, allowing the above power to happen (teach)
Of course, to develope this took a large group of Mages several years (and many lives) to create the breakthrough to make the blade (develope its powers)..
This is cool, but gross...

I am not sure you couldn't do this in AM, but any SG should think twice about allowing it...but then again, if it kill a bunch of Mages to develope it, maybe it isn't all that bad...PC's, please step up to be the first to work on this great breakthrough...
:laughing:

:blush:
10

Given that the sword exhists, it must be posiable, right? Hehe.

A spirit could have the power to learn from any weilder, perhaps treating their skill level as a Tractatus.

Or even easier:

New Spirit Power
Mirror of Mortal's Dance-For 5 Might this spirit may add the Ability score in Single Weapon of any man it touches to its own. The added score points are used as permanent experience, thus it takes 2 men of ability 5 to raise the Spirit's Single Weapon Skill of 1 to 2. The Spirit must penetrate any magic resistance on a target to be drained as normal.

Such a spirit could be bound in a sword, and while it wouldn't grow really powerful within a combat, it could become very very powerful over the decades.

Same delio for a Daimon power. An aspect of a Daimon might be able to pass the experience onto its main self...brrr.

11

Sense of Life
InCo 20
R: Per, D: Sun, T: Hearing
(Base 3, +3 Hearing, +2 Sun)
A sense is created that gives the caster a sound-like feeling of every living human in his near. In combat he feels the punches an attaks of the enemys and he grants a +9 Bonus to Def and a +3 Bonus to Att.
Some of the users say they feel the chi of the targets.

Sense of Images
InIm 30
R: Per, D:Sun, T: Vision
(Base 3 Enhance a sense, +4 Vision, +2 Sun, +1 use a sense at a distance)
A sense is created that gives the caster an image in his mind of every thing in his near. He see when someone sneacks at him, he see every weapon in a fight against even 100 men, he see every rock that fall on him clearly, even if things are in his back. In combat this sense is very powerful if you train it properly. +9 to Att and Def.
Some of the users say they feel the chi of earth itself.

These spells were designed by the spell "Shriek of the impending Shafts" a InHe spell with Hearing Target and only a level of 15 on page 136 of the core rule book.

These are two spells long ago posted here in the spell grimoire, you might rule that the Hearing/Vision Targets are non-standart hermetic-targets bt even then the level would only get up one or two magnitudes. Because these spells are Imaginem spells even a magic resistance is not so powerful against these: the guarded magi or magical creaturs are protected directly, but when the species go throug the resistance you can sense them with this spell and because light or images move very fast (;)) the power of the spell shouldnt change.

One other possible spell idea could be an InMe spell wich allows you to read all of the combat-relevant thoughts of a intelligent beeing AND translates this thoughts directly into a "sense" of whre there might be the next attak of your enemy or where the would be a good point to slice through his defenses.

Or a spell which is inspirated by the Warhammer 40k Harlekins an their Holo-Suits: the Image of the User becomes an exploding burst of thousend sof colours which move extremly fast und without any cntrol. On Personal and Diameter this should only be a Level 5 ReIm (Base 3: Make Objects appear to move rapidly in a disorentating way, +1 complexity, +1 Diameter) or a MuIm4 (Base1: Change one sensation, +1 Diameter, +2 complexity because of varoius colours and a high speed). This spell sould giove you bonuses to att and dfn nearly as high as if you are invisble. Pherhaps even higher.

12

I have to admit I'd disapprove most strongly of any attempt to import that most wretched staple of generic fantasy, the magic sword, to any ArM saga in which I was involved. David Chart's decision to, in the fifth edition, allow magic resistance to protect against enchanted weapons is, in my opinion, one of the most sophisticated and intelligent amendments to the game's rules, despite it's much-discussed loopholes.

So far as the rules go, about the only practical method I can think of for producing D&D-esque magic weapons would be to enchant swords, or better, armour with constant-effect ReTe magic to reduce their encumberance. The latter would offer some combat advantage, whilst avoiding the downside of allowing one's foe magic resistance.

13

WOW! - did you compare this with Shirke Of Impending Arrows (Inhe - Ser's Parma to exact name)?

+9 Def is way high, and +3 att is a huge bonus not granted by the other spell.

This sounds like an attempt to bring in Oriental style "Ki" and Martial Arts - not very western style... Oh, yes, what on earth is "chi" in terms of Western Europe in the Middle Ages? I can only think of the greek letter X "chi"... no - don't answer - I'm teasing :blush:

Here the fault would appeat to be assuming that perception equals understanding, rather than sensory overload...
Autistic individuals are said to have senses such as you describe - perceiving everything all the time, with no filtering, and they have a near-impossible time, and in bad cases retreat from the world in and attempt to stop the "shouting"!

Still using greek letters, too... Why not Phi, or Rho or Kappa?

I'd agree the sensing bit starts there, but I think you've taken the bonuses too far.

14

I REALLY don't like this spell:

Shriek of the Impending Shafts (InHe 15!!)

Lets you know where anything wooden will be in the immediate future by a shriek that sounds in the air in advance of the wood's comming. A piece of wood that is controlled my change course, so the spell is sometimes wrong. You get a +9 bonus on Defense scores against wooden weapons (provided that you have the freedom to dodge), and you can automatically dodge wooden missles fired from more than 10 paces away.
The shreik is only audible to you , and it cannot be simulated by people making noises. (Base 2!!, +2 Sun!!, +3 Hearing)

The base 2 effect is "Locate a plant", which I could see being "let me hear where all wooden weapons are right now", I would think "let me hear where a plant's momentum will carry it in the future" would be closer to the level 3 effect (a specific fact about a plant).
I also think that "hearing where a plant would be" is not a terrifically useful way to dodge a missle. If you pumped it up to sight level I might agree that it would allow you a huge bonus like +9. For hearing? Maybe +3. In addition, I would think that multiple wooden attacks would only confuse the issue, reducing the bonus by 1 (if set at +3) or minus 3 (if you maintain the +9) per attacker beyond 1.

But really, how useful could this spell be, except to alert you to a suprise attack? Basically you already know where someone is going to try to put any weapon: inside you. If that insight doesn't motivate you to dodge as best you can, how will screaming in your ear help?

I suspect the bonus was made so large because of the presumed weak defense of a Mage, but I think we can see stacking problems when used on a grog or by a combat able mage.

Note this spell doesn't really tell you where the plant will be, since Hermetic Magic can't see the future. So it must give you the information after the shaft has been fired or the swing has been started....this seems like almost useless information to me.

However given that this spell is official, Lucius's spell isn't so far off. I would add that knowing where a person is isn't the same thing as knowing where the sharp part of his sword is, so unless there's a Terram and Herbam req, the spell shouldn't be as good as Shriek of the Impending Shafts.

As for giving a bonus to attack, I can't see that hearing can give you any more bonus than your god-given sight already has given you.

15

Remember that Hermetic sense-target spells are still limited by specifics of the sense in question. See ArM5, p. 114: "Each magical sense target grants the recipient information through one of his senses.... [I]t is subject to the same limitations as the mundane sense."

Because of this, a target Vision version of Shriek of the Impending Shafts would only apply to any attacks that occur in the magus's line of vision, though it might provide a more useful bonus. I suspect that the reason that the spell uses target Hearing is so that it applies all around (just like regular hearing does) - and thus applies to attacks that the magus can't see.

By this argument, the Sense of Images spell wouldn't work as written, except to enhance the perception of images already in the magus's line-of-sight. Target Hearing might work, or maybe using target Individual, a Mentem requisite, and a hefty "intricacy" boost to the magnitude.

The basics of the Sense of Life spell are decent, though I agree with caribet that the bonus is well too high. The downside is that it requires penetrating Magic Resistance.

16

In fact these spells (in my Saga) were created by a Criamon maga who explored Asia and their arts of magic over many dozends of years and learned much from the Martial Arts Masters of Asia.
So most of the users of these spells are in fact asian hedgemagicans which adapted magic theory and join order and house ex Miscellanea with the help of the Criamon maga (as allies against the Overlord of the Brotherhood of Konfizius the mighty Lo Pan, but this is another story) . Thats the cause for the Chi-Stuff.

If the Bonus granted by the spell is to high... well i only adapted one official spell and the bonus granted by him. So dont blame me.

About the Vision target and the sensory overload: i only chosed Vison because i wanted an higher range fpr thsis pell as simple hearing, so you can put in Hearing and add one magnitude. And in m Saga both spells are only usefull if you spend some time (3 months :wink:) to learn how to get used to these many, many new informations. If you would cast one of these spells on an idividual not used to it I would give them a penalty on all his rolls! And, of corse, if you are able to see alls things around you get mad... but i think a proper magus copukld make some filters in such a spell to get only useful informations or to control what he feels. I dont wrote it down because im not so good at englisch so every word less is a good word for me. :smiley:

Edit: what i want to say: perhaps the Boni granted are to high, perhaps I should make minior modifications in Level, Targets ect, perhaps i should make a more medivial version, but I think the idea itself (a InIm Spell which grants you information useful for combat) is a very good option for every fighting magus and thera is already a official spell (not with InIm but with InHe) with very high bonuses. So feel free to post a own version of the spells.

17

OK, I have been convinced. ReCo is not the way to provide a buff in combat. At best I could still see it being used for a character that had no combat abilities, and thus provide something of an improvement, and the duration still would have to be Concentration. With those limitations, the wizard could probably find a better use of his time and abilities.

Here are a few things that are more in line with the rules to provide some combat advantages.

Elixir of Heracles

This is a popular lab text in the unsettled areas of Europe, allowing the creation of a drinkable potion that makes the imbiber into a near unstoppable force. Wizards would not likely drink this themselves due to the risk. After drinking it the imbiber adds +5 to his Soak and can ignore pain and fatigue until the next sunrise. Because this lab text was made with experiements, it does have a side effect, providing the drinker with the Reckless Personality Trait at +3. Considering what it is meant to be used for, most thought this side effect was worth it. Once the potion wears off, all of the short term fatigue levels accrued become Long term, if no fatigue was gained then drinker gains 2 long term fatigue levels. The drinker will also gain a Warping point.

MuCo (Re requisite) Level 50

R: Touch D: Sun T: Individual

Base 25 (give +5 Soak) R: +1, D: +2, +2 for Requisite

A wizard using this lab text would be able to make 10 potions.

From here I was thnking about making an effect that would raise Quickness by something like +2-+3. However there really isn't a formula for that. CrCo is used to raise physical stats, but it's always +1 at a time, the higher levels dictate the practical maximum.

It's probably been covered before, but is there a way to give a temporary bonus of +2-+3? MuCo doesn't have any examples, but that might be the option to use for a temporary effect. Either way the level is likely to be high enough to cause Warping.

18

Hmm why not ReCo?
You could use a ReCo spell in bracers or boots (as a part spell) to create sometzhing to increase the speed of someone, and the ability to move your arms and legs faster or with higher power (moving an arm at a higher speed provides more kynetic energy and moving faster with your legs should make it harder to hit you) should increase your combat power. The only two disadvantages would be: first you should get used to these higher speeds and the bonus to your Att and Dmg gained from higher arm speed would be stopped by parma (in my opinion because the movement ist magical) but the Dfn bonus from higher leg speed would not be blocked.

Other possible spells for a bether fighter could be: a spell which enchants your weapon to do fire, acid, lighning damage, a spell which creates flashlights and sounds so that enemys are distraced, a wizards sidestep with more images than one, a CrMe to put fear in your enemys heart, a CrMe to put bravery in your heart, a ReMe to move all distranctings thoughts and feelings away so you can concentrate more on fighting (gain a bonus on att and dfn and you would be immune to fear and something), an item to teleport or blink you in a fight so you can make extremly suprisingly attaks, a sword which you can form with a MuTe so it can used like an axe, like a whip, like monofilament perhaps it could move freely around you like hundrets of dancing, all-slincing monowires and you could make a spell which increases or decreases the weight of a sword or something to make it easier to swing or to make more damage.
Or simply make you invisible and with no sounds. :smiley:

And a set of permanent silk clothing (like the spell) which gives you +3 soak, weared under a powerful MuTe chainmail which is indestructible and is as heavy as a woll shirt plus a indestructible, semi-intelligent, the power of attaks negating shield could also be useful.

Puh I am lucky that the last fight in my saga with fighing skills is 3 months old. :smiley:

19

The only time a combat 'Buff' has come up in the Nurockrah saga is when I decided to make a ahem Ring of Protection, +1 (It's actually called The Apprentice's Desperate Defence)(It's +1 to defense rolls). This was under 4th edition, so we used the guidelines in the Parma Fabula to make the item (an Iron ring, engraved with shields). Final level came out to 20, and the item is an invested item. And yes, it was made by an apprentice (done in one season, too).

Couldn't the aforementioned guidelines be tweaked/mangled to work under 5th, at least for items?

It seems that Magic in Ars is more about affecting things in the story than affecting things on paper, though...

Steve
(The Journey to being a master is achieved one post at a time. I'll probably be dead before I get there. :slight_smile: )

20

AFAICS, the idea of the spell is to locate the wood by hearing, and to track its movement over very short time. This allows you to extrapolate - intuitively - where it will be next. Especially if its rushing towards you.

You could at least know whether your current movement got you out of the way of the missile. And that's likely all you need.

I think the Vision issue has already been addressed. How huge the bonus should be is a judgement call depending on how the SG imagines the interaction between the caster and the sensual input of the spell, and on perceived campaign balance.

To make sense of the spell, here you have to imagine that the different 'sounds' by the wooden items can be distinguished by the caster, of course.

Kind regards,

Berengar