[New spell] The self-centred clay

I think that opening a new thread for each new spell to be discussed seems a tidier idea than having a single gigantic "discuss spells here" thread. This thread is for a variant of the controversial :slight_smile: magical-lodestone-sand spell; in the end my troupe and I have decided that "normal" lodestone in Mythic Europe is not "normal" at all, but a magical material that is a source of Rego vis. While the purpose of this spell is identical, the effect and Arts involved are different. I also think the description of how the spell works is both more "mythically" flavoured, and far easier to understand.

The self-centred clay
Creo Terram level 5
R:Touch, D:Ring, T:Ind

This spell creates ten cubic paces of very heavy (approximately as lead), matte-black, magical clay. Firing, baking or drying an object made of this clay fixes its shape, just like with normal clay. However (unlike with normal clay) it also "fixes" the up and down directions for the object: so that if a vase is fired or dried and then turned upside down, it will then "weigh" upwards (with its normal weight) and will tend to fall in that direction.

Base 1 "Create clay", +1 unnatural property, +1 Touch, +2 Ring

Does not work IMS, but feel free to fly your ships with it. :slight_smile: It is just a variant of the spell you posted in the other thread


Why not?

It has the same purpose, but the effect is quite different and, I believe, easier to understand. I find it also more flavourful. Note that it's Creo Terram instead of Muto Terram. This means the guidelines used are different, which should also reduce controversies. Creo has just a flat +1 magnitude for an unnatural property.

IMS this is not unnatural. It is against the essential nature of clay. Yes, nbig word we use too much, I am aware of it. But this still does not work IMS. If you want to fly you use wind, feathers and auram, not clay. Clay falls down

U2- Beautiful day

So you can't make a flame that burns without light in your saga? Or a cloud that is solid enough to walk on? These seem effects that violate "essential nature" on about the same scale to me.

Not with Creo. That is Muto by all stands.


Actually, you are right about Creo Ignem and Creo Auram not having "unnatural property" guidelines.
I still contend that "unnatural property" can be solidity for air, coldness for fire, or "falling upwards" for stone.
It would also find it very strange if "unnatural property" changed meaning between the Creo and Muto guidelines.

IMS, only Lunar material would fall upward, since it's natural location is in the Lunar sphere. There is no notion of gravity to work against.

Frankly, I don't see the point of posting things on which you can get no consensus, nor gain any insight from the forum. It strikes me as narcissist or trollish, I'm sorry to say.

Well, that's the whole point of "unnatural property" ... I agree there's no notion of gravity, but just one of "natural direction of motion" for things. In this case the "unnatural property" of the created clay is its unnatural ... "natural" direction of motion.

Actually, I wonder how I'm supposed to know if a spell (that appears perfectly in line with the rules to me) will gather complete, some, or no consensus without posting it. Similarly, how am I supposed to know whether I'll gain any insight or not from the rest of the forum?

Doesn't Fire also tend to fall upwards, at least until it reaches the sphere of Fire? See how it hangs upside down from its fuel!

I'm not sure if "motion" exists, it smacks of inertia. I've heard that the arrow keeps moving because air pushes it. My point is that to give an unnatural motion, you'd need to Muto another element's property - like your idea of fire.

Base Creo guideline to create anything magical is 50.

CrAn: Create a magical beast , page 116

page 130

There are no specific guideline statements for Herbam or the elemental forms , but i have assumed similar guidelines apply.
This is just from the core rules , i have not checked RoP: Magic.

If people are suggesting Muto , then that is probably the way to go , but throw in a Vim requisite just to be sure.

Lunar material (=aither) travels in circles, not in straight lines. This is why the planets rotate around the earth rather than crashing into it or flying away from it. If you managed to get aither into the subLunar realm, it wouldn't fall in any direction - it would float and rotate, or else start making circular transits around objects. Or something...


Spot on. Fire and air are both centrifugal, in that they travel away from the centre of the universe. Water and Earth are centripetal, falling in the opposite direction. Hot elements go up, cold elements go down. The dry elements (fire and earth) are absolutely centrifugal/centripetal, so they will move through the other elements to get where they want to go. Stones sink through water, fire rises through air. The moist elements are relatively centrifugal/centripetal.

To grant unnatural properties to matter requires Muto in my book. A created object is always perfect according to its Form. This is why you can't grow wings on a cat with Creo. You need Muto for that.


Hmm, but the Creo Terram (and also Creo Aquam) guidelines specifically say that you can grant unnatural properties to what you create. For example consider castor oil that, instead of having its natural horrible taste, tastes of roses. This (mildly) violates the essential nature of castor oil. But you can create it with Creo magic.

Mmm, nice idea. Just beware that lodestone is quite abundant in some places. And that it is a finite resource.

Nice concept.
I do agree with others though that since the property change in the material is so radical, you need a Muto requisite. Maybe an extra magnitude for complexity as well.

Also questioning the "Ring" Duration, as i have the spell effect drop if whatever is affected goes outside the Ring.

Personally, I would probably make it a Creo Ritual with Permanent Duration instead. It would also prevent any risk of "ships falling from the skies". :mrgreen:

Thanks! As for being abundant, yes, it's just an issue of deciding how "concentrated" is the Vis.

We read it that way too. The magical clay must stay within the Ring or disappear. It's a cheap but risky way to have what, in sci-fi terms, you'd call an "anti-gravity" field. I can see different durations, in particular Moon, being useful depending on your purpose.

Mmm, in that case you do have a problem you know?

Firing, baking or drying an object made of this clay fixes its shape, just like with normal clay.

Etc., your characters will have to do all of it within the Ring, and the Ring must be part of the place where its going to be used... Ie it will all have to be done at the point of use, which will probably be rather messy and open up for accidents to happen.
You can do the treating of the clay magically of course, but it will still probably be inconvenient to do it all within the Ring.

And even with a Mu requisite AND an extra magnitude for whatever, its still a fairly low level spell so changing to Moon isnt a problem. Still though, i think making it a Permanent Creo Ritual should be well worth it.

I think that guideline didn't mean to imply all forms of 'unnatural' were permissible without needing requisites. It still has to derive from the realm of forms. So the unnatural shape of a statue is permissible because statues, while 'unnatural' can be derived from the realm of forms - just like lots of manufactured items. On the other hand, 'magnetic clay' wouldn't be from the realm of forms.

If you want to make the taste a property of the thing being created and the taste property doesn't conform with the way that same property manifests in a 'normal' or even 'perfect platonic form' of the thing in question, then you'd need a muto requisite because the property you're talking about doesn't conform to the object's properties or any example of the object in the realm of forms.

Sure you can create with Creo - but you're deriving the properties of your creation from the realm of forms. Deviation from the properties inherited from the realm of forms requires Muto.

IMS, my 2 cents.

Agree 100%.
Creo Aquam Guidelines , page 121