If one were going to create a new virtue that could be initiated within certain mystery cults which allowed the initiate magus to benefit from a mundane lab assistant, provided they have a score in magic theory, would that be a minor or major virtue?
They cannot already by default?
I mean, if you can have somebody with "Failed Apprentice" Virtue as an assistant, i don't see why you couldn't have a Red Cap helping you into the lab too ^^!
Technically, that's been errata'd away: See Failed apprentice here. Of course, many existing sagas may have ignored that change and kept their failed apprentices.
Seems minor enough to me, silveroak.
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I'd put it strongly as a Major virtue. It opens up an avenue to add huge bonuses to the lab total. Even if the magus needs a high Leadership and a group of trained mundanes to capitalize on that, adding +40 to any lab activity with but a few years of investment? That can’t be anything but Major.
By comparison, Apt Lab Student adds +6 to the lab total if you have a lab text, Inventive Genius adds +6 if you experiment, Verditius Magic allows you to add your Craft score to the lab total if you craft the item yourself while enchanting.
What is being proposed here is arguibly better than a MMF (while not applicable for casting totals, it covers anything one can do at the lab).
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If you are grandfathering in Failed Apprentice to be a usable lab assistant, then you can probably call it a minor virtue. As it stands, the ability to just... use anyone who you want as a lab assistant seems pretty Major: It takes a few teaching seasons of setup, but that's a +3 to +lots bonus twice a year.
Mathy Thoughts
With Com 0 and Teaching 3, you can single-target a 12xp season for MT on a mundane assistant, which gets you (assuming Int +1) a +2/+3/+4 for 1/2/3 seasons of work. With one more season and exposure, you get another level of MT. Since covenfolk can work for two seasons a year, you need 2 assistants to help you.
This is, of course, assuming that you're maxed out at 1 lab assistant of this style. If you get to use leadership, a leadership 2 will double this bonus, leadership 3 will triple it.
This gets more powerful if you can easily find +2 or +3 int mundane assistants (or make them with rituals). This gets easier if you have a lot of books or a mundane teacher so the magus doesn't spend time on it.
Assuming you have a number of Int +1 mundanes read a Magic Theory L3 book, and get leadership 3, you get a +12 to your lab total by waiting around a year for them to study.
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I would add, to compare with existing helpers, Verditius have the unique ability to have Forge companion that adds +1 PER 5 LEVELS of crafting abilities, and Verditius mage can have a number of Forge Companion up their Leadership level. So at most +2 per Forge Companion if they are extremely skilled (275 xp in one crafting skill is quite a feat in itself). More over, the crafting skill must be matching the skill used by the mage, so a lot of restriction for little bonus.
In fact, it could be more an initiation for future lab assistant than for the mage itself: the initiation grants enough magical sensitivity to the future lab assistant so he can now help an hermetic mage in his lab work.
Part of the initiation script requires an Ordeal that is the sacrifice of a Supernatural ability - so only magically aligned character can become lab assistant.
Of course, if the mage itself wants to easily initiate the virtue, he must have it himself - so either you consider than having the Gift and being an hermetic mage is enough in itself, or the mage must undergo the initiation and sacrifice some supernatural ability.
Since we talk about a Mystery cult, there is the question of building a whole cult around it. Obviously, it is entirely Hermetic - it might borrow from an older cult, but since it gives specific help for hermetic labwork, it has been fully adapted.
Then, what other useful virtues can it grants: Puissant MT is the first one I can think of, maybe unique virtues that decrease risks in the lab or grant bonus specialisation (Brewing specialist, Art Specialisation, Independent: increases the time a mage can be away from his lab during a season without incurring penalties...),...
Depending how much you want to make it powerful or restrict it, you can decide that the lab assistant can only efficiently assist the mage that open the virtue or can assist any mage - such virtue will greatly impact the Order if any mage can be assisted by these lab assistant.
Regarding the history of the Cult, you have your usual suspects: Bonisagus and Verditius would be the main one interested in investing time to acquire such assistant. But you could also consider Ex Miscellanea mages who tried to help edge wizards who wanted to touch the wonder that hermetic mage are capable of and were willing to forfeit their ability - maybe the discovery of this initiation was a Opening of the Gift that failed ?
Finally, you might consider also mages or House more interested in their own efficiency (Tremere for example), that would "poach" gifted kids, but not enough for being hermetic mage, to turn them into useful tools.
Then you can consider what would be the status of such assistant? If they are numerous enough and it is not a dirty secret anymore, do they have a status similar to Redcap, especially if they can serve any mage - they are highly skilled worker that can be hired for a price - which House would they belong to ?
It is an interesting avenue that can lead to many stories.
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Actually the magus would not need the virtue in order to lead someone els in an initiation- it is simply harder (has a higher target score). That restriction only applies when the mystagogue is unGifted.
Additionally in the more generous versions of this I would expect that "some shuck who learned Magic Theory" is going to be affected by the Gift lowering the effective leadership ability by 3.
Though requiring the potential assistants to gain a virtue so they can be useful in the lab does seem more logistically sound. The magus will probably want some sort of loyalty based flaw as part of the initiation though to keep the initiated lab assistant from finding a better gig.
Agreed.
I went too fast in my writing.
Initially, I thought of a virtue for a Mage to have a mundane helping him in his lab, and that would have been at least a Major Virtue.
But when I thought of giving a virtue to a mundane to be able to help in a lab, then, it is more likely to be a minor Virtue. Target initiation is still 18, so still high, but much more achievable than a 30 to self initiate a Major Virtue.
An initiation script would look like: Minor Ordeal (sacrificing a minor virtue) +3, Sacrifice of time +1 - lengthy initiation process, Complete a quest (maybe a dream quest close to the Far Realm, or a version of Odin being hang by the feet, over a well of knowledge) +3, second minor Ordeal (strict vow towards the tenant of the Order, or the mage) +3, the Mystagogue sacrifices time as well +3, for a +13. So with +2 Presence and +3 in Mystery Lore, it is doable. I am considering that the Mystagogue does not know the virtue, as a mage, he can assist naturally, but feel free to disagree, I won't die on this hill.
Because the future initiate needs to complete a quest, he must be volunteering, so finding such candidate willing to sacrifice a gift is in itself an adventure akin of finding a familiar and it cannot be done with too young candidates, they won't have the skills to complete the quest. Unscrupulous mage might consider sacrificing a perfectly gifted child and nurture him/her to become an assistant - so once such practice are known, I would not be surprised if some new chapter would be added to the Peripheral Code: the Gift is too precious to be wasted that way, even if apprentices are only a property of the magus.
Obviously, I would put the same restriction on the mage: he can only have one assistant per Leadership skill level.
It depends.
First, benefit how much? As much as an apprentice, adding Int + Magic Theory + applicable Virtues? Or as much as a Forge Companion? Or... ?
Second, benefit from one assistant, or benefit from one or more assistants?
Third, any other restrictions? As in, I don't know, you can only ever have one such assistant to which you are bounded for life? Or maybe the assistants are priestesses of a particular ancient goddess, and help you only in lab tasks associated to her portfolio?
This could range from something as small as Covenant lab personalization - no extra Virtue or initiation required - to something excessive even for a Major Virtue.
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It's worth looking how other traditions do this. Solomonic Sahirs may have ungifted assist them in the lab - if they've been initiated in the solomonic art that's being worked on this season. On the other hand, the solomonic sahirs don't have a magic theory-like skill, and rely on other skills in the lab. As a counter-example, folk witch do have a magic theory-like skill. They still require the participating witch to have the corresponding supernatural ability before helping at sabbat (which is slightly different mechanically from helping in a lab). Sounds like if you want to initiate that, the most likely is not a virtue on the magi being helped, but on the mundane helper. And with the number of hermetic arts... sounds like you'll need a high number of mundane to participate in the 50 techforms. I might be inclined myself to only require the form as an initiation if I did this.
The base question is simply the ability to use mundanes trained in magic theory as lab assistants (adding int+MT) limited by the mage's leadership ability as modified by the Gift (typically -3)
Extraneous hypothetical conditions are worth discussing, especially if you think certain ones might modify the value of the virtue, but that is the core question.
I am also interested in secondary questions of a virtue that would be initiated by a mundane to allow them to serve as a lab assistant, or even a combination where both magus and mundane would require their own initiations (which would, I think, be the generic version of the hypothetical priestess question)
The magus can share Parma to reduce the gift penalty.
First, I thought you could not actually have two ordeals adding in - but please correct me if I'm wrong here. I don't play with initiations much.
If I was designing this, I would do it as a two-phase initiation. First, give the Initiate Unaffected By the Gift as a minor virtue, and the Ordeal for Vow of Loyalty. Sacrifice of time for initiate and mystagogue (probably learning the rules and laws of the order, Code of Hermes or something). Then a second initiation, sacrificing a Magical Ability virtue as an Ordeal and getting the 'I Can Help In Lab' virtue (I'll call it Hermetic Initiation). The ease factor gets reduced by previous ordeal a bit and you can perhaps have the mystagogue get some time back.
I think the easy name for a mundane initiated virtue would be "Hermetic Lab Assistant", you know, to make it simple and obvious.
Instead of looking at this as a virtue to be initiated, I'd look at it as a breakthrough in Magic Theory itself, to allow mundanes to effectively make non-magical, but magical related, work. Things such as double-checking notes, cleaning equipment, or just grabbing an item for you when you ask "bring me the whachamacallit from the lower shelf, the blue one".
In my mind this would comprise streamlining the magical notation, or creating notations for things that are tacitally known by the magi (for example, any magus capable of basic InVi "knows" what magic feels like, but a mundane with Magic Theory still needs to be explained exactly how a magical trace behaves and feels). It would include standardizing procedures and methods such that the simple, non-magical ones can be reproduced even without the Gift (allowing the magus to focus on what really matters).
In a sense, this is a mostly mundane breakthrough, requiring no magic worthwhile noticing... and yet, it could be the biggest since Bonisagus (because in a way it allows mundanes to do, or at least help with, magic). Instead of resulting in a virtue for the magus who achieved the breakthrough, I'd suggest that the points were directed towards his Magic Theory score.
The actual end result would probably be a Magic Theory tractatus (or a collection of tractatus). If developed by a mystery cult this tractatus would be a hidden secret, only accessible to the innermost circle, and probably require a few seasons of "retraining" your Magic Theory in accordance with the new framework.
To make a magus start with this I'd think about a virtue "Improved Magic Theory: you learned MT according to the theories of Tim the Enchanter. You gain X extra XP in Magic Theory and you may use mundane assistants who also know this theoretical framework". This assumes, of course, that the knowledge was still not spread through the Order. If it was, the virtue is not really needed, and everyone automatically benefits from the breakthrough.
If it has not spread then a mundane would either need the same virtue (indicating previous learning from someone with the knowledge) or to be taught MT from scratch by someone who has it. If the knowledge is secret, then I'd restrict the virtue to companions and force them to take the Enemes flaw, Dark Secret, or something like it.
This virtue is in essence a variant of so many virtues which give an initial amount of XP, and it's rolls up in one both that the magus got access to the precious information and got a sizeable amount of training with it.
In game terms, the value of the virtue would be defined by how much improvement it brings to the magus lab total. I'd say even adding MT/5 (as a forge companion) is very strong, due to it's breadth. Ah, but the Leadership score would be offset by the Gift. Yeah, but every magus would raise their Parma enough to protect the people helping him, so take that into account (or, you could have another magus assisting you and using his Parma to help cover the assistants).
It's not that hard to get a +6 applied to everything the magus does in the lab if MT/5 is used. It does require some investment, but it surely outshines Adept Laboratory Student and Inventive Genius given a few years.
I think that would be grossly unbalanced even as a Major Virtue.
Remember: mundane help is essentially "free" for a magus; and a mundane whose career is to be a lab assistant will likely spend a far larger fraction of his xp on Magic Theory than most magi. A magus with Leadership 5(lab work), extending his Parma over half a dozen mundane assistants with Int+2 and MT 8, gets a +60 bonus to all lab activities.
You can protect one other person per point in parma, so to do this you would need to have both parma and leadership at six, which is not something I would use a "just" qualification on. Additionally while mundanes working as lab assistants will likely spend more of their xp on magic theory that is a larger piece of a smaller pie, and they really can't go above whatever source material they have to learn from, so realistically they will be in the 3-5 range. In any case it will require a significant amount of time spent improving parma magica and leadership to get the kind of benefit you are talking about, as well as teaching the mundane assitant's magic theory.
Let's not go so extreme.
4 Parma, 3 leadership (lab) so 4 assistants. 4 parma is something magi want anyway and is on the lower end for established magi. 3 leadership would be 2 seasons with an adequate mundane teacher.
As the mundanes will be cherry picked for the task, +2 int and +4 MT is low end. As their MT speciality is clearly assisting, getting from MT 0 to 3, is 2 seasons with a decent teacher.
+24 to lab activities seems still quite extreme, and that is very much the low end.
My initial reaction too was that this is not just major. It is off the chart.
There is only one caveat. If labour is scarce and the SG takes a harsh approach to all recruitment. If the magi, as is the case in most sagas I know, can habitually staff their scriptoria with above average grogs and find intelligent servants to boost lab security, then they will also be able to get lab assistants with positive Int. Only by limiting the labour, will this virtue be bounded. If the magi need all the grogs to work the fields, this virtue may be limited.
We should add that Magic Theory can be learnt by training which is essentially free for the magus, and it is rather fast.
The only selling point for inventive genius in comparison, is that inventive genius applies from Day 1. Lab assistance must be recruited and trained, but even that does not take long, and nobody would care except in extremely slow-paced sagas.
Generally +3 is the typical bonus from a minor virtue. Narrow-scope virtues may have more, like focus and inventive genius for experimentation, but the lab assistant is wide scope. If it easily gives a bonus more than +10 it is over-powered even for a major virtue.
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A lot has to do with how a campaign is being played- if you play where mundanes are essentially a limitless resource then yes, it is overpowered. If you play something closer to actual Medieval social structures where runaways to join the covenant will be pretty rare- maybe 3-6 a decade, then not nearly so much.
However, lets go to the other models if you feel this is simply too powerful which are:
2) The mundane requires initiation/virtue, but then can be used by any magus (not necessarily using the proposed script above)
3) both Magus and mundane require initiation/virtues in order for the mundane to assist.
Obviously failed apprentice accomplished number 1 before the errata, should that be the same level (minor virtue) or should it require a major mundane virtue? Minor for both magus and mundane? Major for both? How do you think that should divide out?
The problem I see with requiring mundanes to have a Virtue that can be initiated, is that once one has it, that one mundane can initiate others. Sure, you can make the initiation difficult, but then the script can be modified to remove problematic elements. Requiring something like the Gift, or True Faith, or maybe a cerimonial position that only few people can have at a time makes the limit more solid. Personally, I'd consider this unbalanced even as a "normal" Major Virtue for everyone involved - basically, the added requirement that mundanes have the Virtue tends to constrain the magus only a little.
The issue with a failed apprentice is that such a character ought to be rarer than a magus (see above). I mean, sure, nothing in the rule mechanics says you can't have a dozen failed apprentice grogs, but that strains credibility setting-wise. In any case, failed apprentices' help in the lab was removed for good reason.
So, yes, I think the only way I'd allow this is if there was some much more significant cap to the bonus that can be accrued. Maybe... create two Minor Virtues, say Initiate of the Silver Oak and Mystagogue of the Silver Oak. A Mystagogue can use the assistance of Initiates in his lab activities (and Ritual spellcasting maybe?), up to his score in Silver Oak Lore. Each Initiate grants a +1 bonus to the lab total, or +2 if he was initiated by the Mystagogue himself; double the bonus if the initiate willingly sacrifices his life at the end of the season. The Silver Oak mysteries are sacred, and no one who's not an Initiate may participate in a magical activity making use of them (e.g. as an additional lab assistant - so yes, the Mystagogue must be an Initiate too), nor may anything created through them be shared outside of the cult, lest a terrible curse befall all involved. A Mystagogue's familiar is the only exception.