One roll combat

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

I am thinking about transitioning my group’s fantasy game over to ArM5. One of my players hates armor soaking damage that negates damage from a hit. So I looking at the combat rules, would it break the combat system to change from:

Attack total - Defense total = Attack advantage. Then figure damage total.

to

Attack total as usual + stamina + weapon damage modifier - Defense total as usual + stamina + armor protection?

If I front load the math on the character sheets it should work as stress die + modifier that subtracts the defender’s total from the attacker’s total.

I have never run ArM before and so am asking experienced folks for advice. If this doesn’t work is there an alternate that would?

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2

I have not used this, but have thought about it a bit. Although with Strength instead of Stamina for the attacking side.

There are opponents with relatively low attack and high damage, and these will now be far more dangerous. But other than that, I think it'll be fine. I'd suggest dropping the "Attack & Damage" stat a bit, especially for such foes, but other than that it should be fine.

It depends on the game you play - but usually, such stats aren't really that important once magi get older. Usually.

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3

Thanks.

Here is a cleaned up version.

Attack total: dexterity + combat ability + weapon attack modifier + strength + weapon damage modifier + stress die

Defense total: quickness + combat ability + weapon defense modifier + stamina + armor soak bonus stress die

Attack result: attacker’s attack total – defender’s defense total. Results of 1 or greater inflict a wound. Results less than 1 miss or are inconsequential.

4

While I really don't personally see the allure, and would question bothering to reduce armor to single total, I can see this being workable. Are they coming over from D&D/OSR/clones? Usually the case, when unused to seeing armor as what it actually does - block damage.

I assume then that results 1-5 light wound, 6-10 medium etc as per usual? Funnily enough, armor will do more vs damage with this model than in the D&D family haha...

Anyway, if you want to tinker to simplify or speed up Ars Magicas combat system, I'd advise leaving attack vs defense model and remodel to a combat opposed model, loser gets damage with bonus from difference and then soak it - although that may not solve original complaint from your player. May I guess that the apprehension comes from something like a one-time bad experience where too many hits got soaked and it stalled combat? Normally not an issue in Ars (at least not been at my table), so unless it's slow combat you want to avoid I suggest trying the system as-is before you tinker it.

5

That's a good shortcut to the actual result with these caveat:

  • high Str / low Dex might have missed
  • high Qck / low Sta might have blocked
  • i. e. unarmored fighter won't dodge powerful weapons
  • botch Defense should be Sta + Soak

If you accept those differences, it's faster.

Did you see the Exertion options to hit hard on the first attack? (bottom of p173)

6

As mentioned by others, you remove the combat option of having a big enemy that if he hits you are doomed, but he is unlikely to hit. No +5 to hit +20 to damage Giant with a big club anymore.

You also make armour more important than it currently is. I am not saying armour is worthless now. Armour is quite good, it’s just you are making it even more important.

7

Thanks for the insight.

My players are from the AD&D 1E era with a lot of 5E experience. The player with the aversion to soaking damage had a really bad time with RQ 3 back in the day. I am hoping to move the group away from D&D/OSR altogether. My initial thought was to present this as a formula for opposed roll with the defender’s roll representing the AC needing to be overcome by the attacker. I don’t think I can sell them a straight up opposed roll system.

In your experience, how often do warriors successfully hit but fail to damage an enemy? I know this depends on lots of variables. I am curious about your over all experience.

8

Thanks for the reply.

I have not run or played the system yet. I don’t think I like the impact this solution would impose.

I saw the exertion option. But thought that was for times of desperation as fatigue is a limited resource.

9

Thanks. That’s a consideration I had not seen after my read through of the combat chapter.

10

Good points overall. I would prefer to position and think of it this way for actually playing Ars Magica coming over: Expecting combat focus like in D&D+clones will likely result in disappointment. I would deemphasize the combat aspect altogether so they get a different game/flavor. They'll play MAGI, not fighters. I usually do that with the crossovers, so let them dig into what it is being a magi instead of traditional fight n' loot games.
That may include handwaving grogs, or not giving the grogs much opportunity to fight - choose your opponents.

Also, in the 1200s, I usually keep only grogs having maximum chainmail - no full-platers running around. Maybe the occasional knight (not even them have full plates at this time usually). So don't put forth combats with very high soak characters or opponents and you likely won't see much other than slight reduction on damage. Also remember magi never really have armor unless it's magical garments (limited to +3 soak or it's hard and uncomfy like armor), soak from Form bonus or active protective spell (which is usually not soak and mainly works against magic or as a specific ward).
You can have that be a later "challenge". Focus on having magic deal with things. The game is Ars Magica, not combat simulator.

Regardless, in the few hardcore grog combats we had in my last two campaigns (90ish sessions, 172 sessions and counting) - we're talking in the region of 5-6 fights where it came into play where magic wasn't the decider (but those were excellent). The combat was still faster than most D&D combats. Unlike D&D, damage scales with good attack roll, and it's 10% a 1 is rolled which quite often means good wounds or combat over regardless of soak. However, the soak tends to be what will let you survive, vs what will outright kill or maim you (kinda like in reality).

A hack you can do that we've used is making more sure this happens by changing that effect to instead of doubling on a 1, having a minimum result of 10 on the double (one method), or having each 1 equal to 10 and the roll and add (another method). A more linear increased result. Perhaps just for mundane combat, while keeping the crazy doubling 1's for magic.

We've had plenty of combats being quick decided by great roll. I.e. a "critical" more or less ends the fight. Or at least wounds opposition enough that it's quickly over a round or 2 after. Compared to endless rounds of decimating HP slowly in D&D - it's a breeze IMHO. Especially since already at light and medium wounds, the penalty stacks up fast (which is also why armor is GREAT to limit that). I would again recommend to play RAW first, or at least simualate a few grog fights (chainmail) and get a feel for it before doing surgery on the system.

I would also recommend running grog combat with the trained group (have a good turb captain with leadership and a strong vanguard!) vs trained or untrained group. Faster, more deadly, and let's you focus on the magi. We've had some fun fast slaughters with the elite well trained group vs rabble of bandits, dark faeries etc but also group trained soldiers. It's just one person rolling per side - i.e. much faster.

11

Thanks for the suggestions.

My current campaign has players vested in developing a manor that the player, who will only play fighters, won through service to a local baron. Two thirds of the players will be willing to play magi or magically adjacent, hedge magic types. The rest want to restore their ancestral home to it’s former glory. They prefer fighting bandits, beastmen, and hunting. Most of their opponents have been from the machinations of a death cult high priest who hates them for slaying his brother, a rogue mage on the lam from clerical and arcane authorities, and a race of sentient giant spiders who once enslaved their ancestors and who cursed their descendants when they rebelled, restored their freedom, and broke the spider empire.

Day to day for the characters is very modeled as much as I can on a pseudo authentic medieval fairy tale reality. C&S 2E and Harn are huge campaign influences.

I have not run or played ArM yet. I think it will do fine as rules base for the kind of campaigns that I run. I think most of my players are in grog/companion mode and will take awhile to branch out. They are willing to try options other than our OSR game, but want to keep their characters and the campaign.

I am thinking. Keep rules as written for combat. Thanks to all the replies on this thread, It has helped clarify my understanding a lot. Are there any negatives to when a hit inflicts zero wounds, have NPC’s roll a stamina save or take a point of fatigue or bruising?

12

While I love Ars Magica, I think it's a very different game. Much more focused on long-term character development. I would emphasize this aspect of the game to the players, and highlight the two aspects of (1) gaining experience in "down-time" and (2) gaining virtues & flaws through things like initiation in hedge magic traditions, walking a Forest Path, being granted a prize by a faerie lord, pilgrimage, Infernal bargains, or an adventure in the Magic Realm. For magi, also and foremost mystery cults, as well as integration of hedge magic, original research, and so on.

Also make sure to have a healer in the covenant. Perhaps a hedge wizard, perhaps a doctor, something. And emphasize the slow healing (sans magic) in Ars Magica too, of course.

13

I also don’t like the whiff factor of soak. Here are a few options of mine.

  1. Add soak to defense, and extend the first wound range by str. Beating defense always leads to a cumulative -1 penalty
  2. Keep as is, but getting by defense always incurs at least a light wound.
  3. Armor takes damage
    1. after armor has taken current soak damage, reduce current soak by 1; or
    2. roll d10, on a 0 armor soak is reduced by 1.

I like 1 for simplicity, but then magical damage still needs to soak the usual way or magical damage gets incredibly powerful (you might not mind that).

Options under 3 incur some book keeping, but also model armor decay from magical damage, e.g., Pilum of Fire.

14

If your player doesn’t like ‘armor reduces damage’, he’s going to be unhappy with Pilum of Fire.
That is nothing but pure damage vs soak.

If you do combine it all into a single combat total, then you need to understand that weapon choices all will become just single lines of numbers - Warhammer just becomes +18 attack, Greatsword is +14 attack +2 defense, Poleaxe is +11 attack. Weapons all become a bit more generic. Now this is a game about MAGIC, so it’s not a big deal in my opinion.

You did mention you have one upset player… what do the other players think?

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15

I am trying to sort the system out in my head before pitching/transitioning the campaign to my players. Hence the need to anticipate issues they will have and have solutions or work arounds in place. I will start another thread for other issues they have later. This is just the first issue needing to be addressed.

On the armor reduces damage issue I have decided to phrase this as, using OSR terms, variable AC. As in most defensive factor are calculate on the character sheet before the game so no slow down or math there. Then when defending, roll a stress die and add. The attacker’s attack must exceed the defender’s total to inflict damage. If the soak prevents a wound from being inflicted, have the defender make a stamina save or acquire a bruise.

I have one player who hates Vancian spell list systems. We have been using a free form create your spell on the fly system which he loves. ArM ticks a lot of our boxes. But for clarity, most of the players have no interest in playing mages. They will happily play knights, nobles, rogues, treasure hunters, monster slayers, travelers, pilgrims, merchants, folks with minor arcane powers, and since faith plays a large role in society - a couple prefer to play priests. The majority of their adventures revolve around protecting and strengthening their village and manor. So we will be using the rule set for a more generic fantasy purpose.

16

Consider whether you want to incorporate the information and rules Ars Magica provides for mudnane characters beyond the core rules.

Lords of Men has optional rules for combat that might enrich it as it appears many characters will focus on it; but then again, these rules will also complicate things. It also has lots of information about background stuff you might find useful (or not) - politics, hunting, tournaments...

City & Guild has rules on running a craftsman or trader character. It also has lots of background information on these things you might want to incorporate into your setting (or not).

Art & Academe has rules for playing artists. As well as rules extensive rules for medicine, and a few types of hedge-wizardry (astrology, alchemy).

And of course, various books offer various hedge wizard powers, but perhaps Realms of Power: The Divine is most important in defining what your priests might work like mechanicallly. Although there are other options, for sure - there are lots of hedge wizard rulesets in Ars Magica.

I personally always wanted to run an Ars Magica game without magi, consisting only of a manor-lord and his court, limited to weak hedge wizardry at best. With a strong emphasis on using ingenuity and inventiveness, (Realm) Lore, and negotiation to deal with supernatural situations.

17

When I backed the Definitive Edition, I picked up a complete set of the mundane as well as the arcane rule sets. My intent matches your goal except one PC character is apprenticed to a sorcerer NPC. I’ll let him decide what his path will be once I get a handle on the moving parts of hermetic mages vs hedge mages.