OOC: characters and covenant discussions

[IonianD]

<.< This is getting deep.

So 'Mental lab' is a flaw in Covenants' Laboratories. States its a CrMe ritual spell, probably associated with Art of Memory Ability. I will not 'create' a new Virtue based on that, I would prefer published stuff, please. That ritual will probably be very high.
Its a flaw, because you cant do much, but it does allow you to study and research spells in your mind (ie. when traveling, or after you blew up your laboratory). I would allow your Parens having cast that on your character, but I am leery. We should ask other players if they are ok with this.

The Criamon Philosophy hinges on Empedocles. It is not certain if its right (though they strongly and fervently believe it is). They could be right, they could be partially right, they could be wrong, or they could be imposing their own paradigm on reality. In the end, it does not affect this Campaign. I have a big issue by how they were made in this version (a hold over from earlier editions), but I am going to play it by the book; follow canon or go Gorgiastic. It makes my life simpler...
That being said, almost all Criamon are celibate, vegan, non-combatants. Also crazy af, but thats besides the point. The most important part isnt riddles, but Apt actions (pg 48 and 51-52). Can you pull that off?
Starting with a path is not allowed. Progression in a path thats not described is allowed (we'll just have to create it, and god help us).

Wow, Magic Realm and Vestiges....time out, dont go that deep! Also, once Criamon or whomever escapes time, he/she.it isnt replicated. You dont get an infinite number of existences, because as an ideal you are already outside.

Vedic as in Hindu philosophy? Don't go there, reincarnation is not the same as the Empedocles theory. They seem close but they arent.

EDIT: Its not Craft: Illustration, its Illumination. And cannot be used in tattoos. Whats this book binding and virtue thing?

Bottom line. I think its too deep, at least for a starting character. Take it slow. I am good with Mentem and Art of memory Ability (but I will not allow it for another character, one is enough). The Mental lab, we will ask consensus from players if you can start with it. I guess the character's name is Thufir Hawat?

[loke]

Companion idea: crusader veteran

I propose sir Ronald, a veteran from the crusade 11 years previous, now in his early thirties.

He is knight and educated, originally training to become a priest-knight (templar style), but joined the crusade before he was ordained, as a rank and file knight, only just knighted. After the crusade he has been touring the near east as a knight-errant.

He has a delusion that he be holy (true faith style), but is plagued (major story flaw) by an angel who knows that he is not and who vehemently tries to make him change his ways. He is also wrathful (major) which does not help ...

As the saga starts, the angel has at least managed to convince him that he needs to take a break and search his soul and his God. The remote covenant could reasonably be a good site to do that, hopefully with an opportunity to read adequate scripture, and definately for meditation.

Comments?

[aunguard10]

Was the mentat angle too much, was going for mentat meets Amber. Add Zeno. I probably shouldn't make characters sleep deprived, lol. I'll see what other people make and make something that fits instead of my usual outlandish craziness

[IonianD]

I propose sir Ronald, a veteran from the crusade 11 years previous, now in his early thirties.

[tab][/tab]Oh boy, where to start. I assume this knight is Frank, Latin, Flemish, Norman, anything from the west? Byzantium shattered into Kingdom after 1204. The current 'Emperor' is Flemish, King Henry, rules from Constantinople. The Kingdom of Thessaloniki has a reagent and is under Lombard control. Both are 'friendly' to the west. The Empire of Nicaea and the Despotate of Epirus are remnants of the old Byzantium and anti Latin. In fact the Despotate ruler that just died was excommunicated by the Pope because he was lynching Latin priests and Bishops. Appearing as a knight who took part in the crusades in any of those two places will cause trouble for this character. Thats fine with Dark secret, Feud or Enemies, as long as the knight what he is for. That Delusion and Wrathful though will cause him problems.
[tab][/tab] Furthermore, a magi Convent is not a monastery. I doubt that an Angel would sent him to read scriptures in the midst of what the Church calls heathens most of the time. You will need to work on that aspect. Perhaps make him more gritty, less idealistic?

Was the mentat angle too much

[tab][/tab] No not really, I got no problem with the memory stuff. I restate: a) that ritual lab thingy needs to be worked, and ask fellow players their opinion, b) can you deal with the Criamon no sex, no meat, no combat thing and philosophy? Or go Gorgiastic. c) Vestiges and Vedic philosophy and such, is too early in the campaign, heavy stuff

[aunguard10]

It was a long term goal.

Criamon in HoH:MC as is are unreadable. Anyway I think the Rustic Magi route may be interesting. I'll see what other people make.

[loke]

@IonianD

I propose sir Ronald, a veteran from the crusade 11 years previous, now in his early thirties.

[tab][/tab]Oh boy, where to start. I assume this knight is Frank, Latin, Flemish, Norman, anything from the west? Byzantium shattered into Kingdom after 1204. The current 'Emperor' is Flemish, King Henry, rules from Constantinople. The Kingdom of Thessaloniki has a reagent and is under Lombard control. Both are 'friendly' to the west. The Empire of Nicaea and the Despotate of Epirus are remnants of the old Byzantium and anti Latin. In fact the Despotate ruler that just died was excommunicated by the Pope because he was lynching Latin priests and Bishops. Appearing as a knight who took part in the crusades in any of those two places will cause trouble for this character. Thats fine with Dark secret, Feud or Enemies, as long as the knight what he is for. That Delusion and Wrathful though will cause him problems.

It might be too much then. Plagued by the angel is a major story flaw. Wrathful and delusion are resp. major and minor personality flaws. Taking more story or personality flaws would violate RAW recommendations. I am happy to let wrathful go for another major personality flaw, but I do not see a clear candidate. Maybe pious, if it is not an undue overlap with the delusion. It can be made more low-key than wrathful.

Yes, I assume Latin, maybe Norman. I could change it, and make a knight who opposed the crusade in one of the battles. He may have been in on the lynching of Latin clerics, and thus attracted the plague of the angel. Now having second thoughts, he may have toured region in search of his soul. Failing that, he tries the covenant.

An alternative, maybe, is to scrap the angel, and take an enemy/dark secret/feud major story flaw instead, and let him seek protection in the covenant. It gives less personal dilemma than an angel on his back, but if the alternative is an unplayable constellation of story flaws then so be it.

I'll take your advice on game balance and playability. What I primarily want to explore is the soul-searching dilemma and contrast between the delusion of holiness and the plaguing angel who tells otherwise.

Furthermore, a magi Convent is not a monastery. I doubt that an Angel would sent him to read scriptures in the midst of what the Church calls heathens most of the time. You will need to work on that aspect. Perhaps make him more gritty, less idealistic?

It isn't, but sir Ronald is deluded.
There is definitely no reason to assume that he always understands the angel's intentions.

I did not mean to make him idealistic at all. I meant to make him torn and repentant. He may have been idealistic, but whatever the ideals he has come to doubt them (with or without the angel's help). He may be gritty (not sure of the exact flavour of meaning, brave? valiant?). Valiance is part of his personality, but he has come to doubt that valiance too, at least he doubts violence as a mean. That is not to say that he will not valiantly and loyally stand up for his friends in a time of need, with violence when called for, but he is likely to repent afterwards, and he will be reluctant to make plans which depend on violence.

Anyway, the ideal location for soul-searching may vary a lot. Escaping the set routines and presumptions is often a critical part of it, and that may include escaping both clerical and noble superiors.

[loke]

@IonianD

No grog creation at this time. They will be generic, until played. Then they get named, and after a while, if the players like them and become a fixture, they get stats and advancement. I have... bad experiences with grogs. I will allow magi one or two personal grogs, but I prefer them as background characters. (I know, its contrary to how most people play)

Fine with me. When you say personal grogs, do you mean servants or shield grogs, or the dual grog who is equally happy to die fighting and to carry hot water for my bath tub? Or one of each?

Personally, I think grogs are undervalued, but then, more than one foreground character per player causes trouble, and playing a grog in lieu of the major characters tends not to be popular. In other words, we are stuffed either way

[loke]

Magus proposal

As a magus, I propose Arnar Bjornaer (or Aquilas in Latin). That's a Norse name, I may consider switiching it for a slavic one. Eagle heartbeast and Auram expert.

I have a couple of ideas for why he might end up in Thebes. Ending up in the mountains suits his inner Eagle well.

1. The missionary. We need to convince magi all over Europe that they need to take care of the magical auras and wild areas. He will aim to take an apprentice ASAP, which is not very soon since he so far has focused on few arts.
2. Escape a tormenting master.
3. Escape a faerie enemy.
4. It was just the best offer for a windy mountain top where he can study Auram.
   The escape needn't be effective, it is just an initial motive.

[John_Graham_52]

I would like to bid on playing a Verditius blacksmith specialising in arms and armour. Theban native. Looking for a place without any other Verditius to avoid any chance of vendetta.

[IonianD]

I did not mean to make him idealistic at all. I meant to make him torn and repentant

Awesome. See, I would have had a problem if he was like Don Quixote. Those kind of characters are fun in a comedy, but very very dangerous in reality. Torn and repentant is good, he can take care of himself, avoid trouble and still be a hero. Please make a draft so we can see him over (or maybe her...now there is an idea, Brienne of Tarth). Also, how powerful is that angel. Would it be able to pass the aegis? I will need to research that.

One or two grogs. Any kind. Two shield grogs, two personal servants, an accountant and a manicurist, your private harem. Anything is fine. Dont make character sheets, if they become favorites, they will be developed.

As a magus, I propose Arnar Bjornaer

Great, make a draft of him, I dig bird heartbeasts. On a side note, I like how on PbP I can now handle loner characters like thieves and shapechangers, without neglecting the rest of the party. Expect lots of aerial views (I wonder if there are any rules for aerial combat)

I would like to bid on playing a Verditius blacksmith

I think you are the only one so far. Lets put a holder on that, if someone else goes for Verditius I'll try to dissuade him/her, ok? Make a draft.

(Why are Very-tedius so popular these days?)

[Quite_Possibly_a_Cat]

Idea one: The Boni researcher. Wants to perform original research. (S)he would be looking to improve upon the longevity ritual, or find a supplement to it.

[tab][/tab] Very nice. There is a whole covenant in Greece that specializes in Longevity rituals, she could work in tandem with them. They are probably the best in all Tribunals. Original research is... difficult. Very timely, costly and punishing in rolls...plus the player will not know the target number nor if its possible at all. As long as you are fine with that and want to play this style, I am ok. However, you need to make sure the character is not confined in a laboratory all the time. I will need him to actually play. See character creation guideline for the Bonisagus example.

I'm counting on you to provide reasons to get out of the lab! Although I was planning on grabbing the Gentle Gift actually.

On the Original Research: Actually I have a "house rule" to recommend on that. The magi shouldn't know exactly what will result. They might have a goal in mind "I will cure warping!", but the actual result might be a gentler form of Wizard's Twilight, something akin to enigmatic wisdom, causing the talisman not to warp its creator or something else. Regardless, the character wouldn't be thinking they'll make the break through themselves. They'd publish their lab texts and count on someone else putting it all together eventually.

Also the Original Research rules aren't all that bad. Actually, if you are using the lab customization rules you can pump safety and the experimentation specialty for delicious bonuses to nearly all lab work!

Finally, one of the "alternatives" I was thinking about was empowering the crap out of a familiar bond with effects that are supposed to increase the magus's living conditions. Or effectively increase their health lab specialty.

Idea two: Merinita cultist!

[tab][/tab]<.< Becoming, yes. See character creation guidelines. Ie. I would prefer not to, but if you really want this, I will work with you. Note, you start with Fae Magic, no other Mystery Virtue. Also there is a Covenant in the Aegean that does just that, could have synergy...

Well, the idea was the character would be created as a pure human. They'd be using the Becoming as a glorified longevity ritual. I think I'll table this idea though unless someone else wants to play a Merinita, or wants to join the House in play. I think Mystery Cults are best done as a team affair.

Idea three: House Misc! Major Virtue of Death Prophecy

[tab][/tab] Ah yes, 'Highlander' attempt. See I think you misunderstand Death Prophesy, it is not 3rd edition Immortality+7. It's not 'Can only die when decapitated', its 'You will die when you lose your head':

Yeah, I sort of jacked Highlander. For something more symbolic how about "die by the sword"? More broadly this would mean any death in combat.

Scholar hiding from his family

[tab][/tab]Interesting, needs more work. Be careful not to make him a bookworm closed in a library. You need to be able to actually play the character. Maybe he is a researcher in folklore, an avid collector of rare books, a student of the Magic realm who cannot actually perceive it, or a pursuer of truth (journalist) who wants to reveal the secrets of Magi to the world....

What about someone wanting to start their own academic system?

Are we using the lab customization guidelines from the Covenants book?

[tab][/tab] Yes, we are. And from the get-go, three people are out of luck (I think I mentioned that in the recruitment post at the 6-8 person?). There is a reason for that, you will become aware of it when we do the Charter.

What is the reason? I was already thinking about making someone with decent Creo Terram though, so this might be much ado about nothing. CrTe-20 Gets Base 3+1 touch+1 elaborate+3 size. That's a good sized sanctum...

As for the Books part, let me think about it...

It matters for creating the character. No point in getting Com+3 and Good Teacher if their books will suck anyway.

Bleh, got to run! Sorry if any replies seem terse, its IRL time crunch!

[aunguard10]

My concern with the knight is I'd hate to kill a pc.

[loke]

@T Riffix Rex

My concern with the knight is I'd hate to kill a pc.

What character would kill him, and why? If there is genuine unplayable conflict, I'll consider something else.

[aunguard10]

Again, why would this character leave Provencal

. Because I'm playing him, if I'm playing him. I'm not building a back story for every little idea. The ex Miscellanea in the book are suggestions, they appear almost no where else. He wouldn't be Jewish either. He'd be a traveler. Craft drawing is craft. Craft painting is craft. Craft "whatever it it that illustrates on paper and on skin make it up" is his craft.

[aunguard10]

@loke

@T Riffix Rex

My concern with the knight is I'd hate to kill a pc.

What character would kill him, and why? If there is genuine unplayable conflict, I'll consider something else.

Edit: Derp, my bad... forgot Dark Secret.

If he's a Latin crusader he's an easy target as a scapegoat for all the horror and hatred for the latins that a Theban would have. "Hi I was in the army that came and raped and murdered and randomly set fire looting your capital, can I sit next to you at lunch?" Isn't going to happen.

[aunguard10]

unless that's the point of Dark Secret. It's a good Dark Secret. Then again my magus likely won't be Theban, too much work to track what ex Miscellanea clan is doing what. A Companion will live with it.

If your character befriends people and is social, then it could be that after finding years down the road isn't so bad. But this decade it's a pretty good Dark Secret.

[loke]

@T Riffix Rex

If he's a Latin crusader he's an easy target as a scapegoat for all the horror and hatred for the latins that a Theban would have. "Hi I was in the army that came and raped and murdered and randomly set fire looting your capital, can I sit next to you at lunch?" Isn't going to happen.

OK. So if you play a Theban character, I should make my knight Theban too!? That's an adjustment I can make without breaking the core concept.

In short, the question goes to the troupe and SG. Which is most playable? An ex-crusader aged 31, or a veteran defender from Constantinople, aged 28, who has been involved in the lynching of Latin priests in later years? I can build up the same personality and the same dilemma of faith on either background. The ex-crusader may well have fought for the other side, as knight-errant, in subsequent years, but I guess the real question is, can an ex-crusader plausibly have survived as knight-errant in the Thebes for 11 years?

[John_Graham_52]

I would like to bid on playing a Verditius blacksmith

I think you are the only one so far. Lets put a holder on that, if someone else goes for Verditius I'll try to dissuade him/her, ok? Make a draft.

(Why are Very-tedius so popular these days?)

My idea is a Verditius who is very like the founder himself in that he has real trouble casting spells and has actually taken a vow to not cast spells at all. His pater has supported this extreme interpretation and has used the time when spells would have been taught to concentrated on arts (no xp in spells but higher spend on abilities and arts). Does that seem feasible?

[aunguard10]

Verditius are broken and only ones that can make items worth a darn, they're just all the same so people usually don't play. Plus the stupid mechanics to prevent more than one in a game, because they're broken. Instead of fixing the mechanic, lew

[Quite_Possibly_a_Cat]

I'm leaning towards the Boni researcher concept now.

Could I start a year out of gauntlet to have bound a familiar? I suppose I could take Magical Animal Companion and make it a familiar early on, but that seems a bit silly.

What mechanics keep more than one Verdi in a game?