OOC: characters and covenant discussions

Retired Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: Bad Apples
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I assume Theban Tribunal characters get +1 Artes Liberales having access to Aristotle and Commentaries on Euclid and Archimedes that Latins would need the Virtue out of A&A. On top of the 14 year apprenticeship and pre apprenticeship academic access.

(ST EDIT)I am not using A&A for virtues (unless a player wants to make a specific artist or academic, then we will discuss this). No Thebans do not get +1 Artes, no they do not have access as a general principle. This is university curriculum, normal people are way less educated. I assume you are referring to page 12 intercept? Notice the Primary useful for Academic characters only. This was a bit out of the blue

Because Magi aren't educated... because Theban Tribunal doesn't set up gifted potential apprentices for success. Lol.

In exchange for the 2 languages and 2 Area Lore? Or is it on top of it?

(ST EDIT)What 2 languages and 2 area lore? what are you referring to?

  • the free languages and Area Lore for non Theban characters in character creation-
    Theban Citizens are Gauntlet age 1 since the last Tribunal was in 1214, correct?

(ST EDIT)Hmmm, I cannot find anything saying that the Theban Gauntlets are in Tribunal years only. Pg 32-35 is about apprentices and decrees of citizenship. Technically this would probably mean Theban characters that want to be citizens need 1-2 years extra. However I am gonna fudge this, if you want 0-2 its fine with me. Is that ok?

Which part, the part where they all start their apprenticeships on tribunal years or the part where apprenticeship is 14 years?

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It would be swell if we could form a sept; have you thought about clan at all? I have not decided, Arelie and Ilfetu seems most appropriate for Arni. Possibly Sirnis. I am not sure how well a serpent and an eagle go together!? Will you make it with a sanguine or choleric aspect?

BTW. Ionian. I notice that the Gathering of Twelve Years occur in 1215 (around midsummer). Does the saga start before or after this?

(ST EDIT) We start pre-saga January-February 1215. Saga will start Spring of 1215. For that 'lost' Winter season, we will do social stuff and getting to know people. I wont be giving exposure or other xp, but I will fudge the rules a bit and give any and all Magi a freebie of 1 season of laboratory making , so that in Spring you can start with a lab -3. 1215 is also Grand Tribunal year, no-idea when. Why the interest in the Gathering of Twelve Years timing, if I may ask?

(P EDIT) Because it would be out of character not to attend, both explicitly according to HoH and according to Arni's ambitions and purpose in life. HoH recommends playing the gathering if it occurs in saga, but I don't suppose that there is room for it. I suppose, we just end up assuming that Arni is away for a few weeks around midsummer, and hope his presence is called for elsewhere. Travel time should be manageable, as he can take the shortest route as crow flies. A serpent may need longer :slight_smile:

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Page 32-33 .

I can not choose how many years after. It is 1 or it is 8, if the year is 1215.

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Added a power gamed version of Aella for you to contrast. Just added the end reward of a decade long quest and storyline, she should gain true faith after they're married in any other campaign. Unless she isn't a Mazdean either...

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[tab][/tab]Question

Should I allow specific Companions as a freebie one (1) book that is tied to their academic tenure each, provided they have a Virtues that justifies this (like Wealthy, Magister in Artibus, Priest, etc)?

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I would. They wouldn't have to rent the book to copy it themselves. Priest though may not have the money for a blank book to copy into, but some gifted partially bound somethings are likely. Wealthy is probably going to have quite a few, especially in Greece.

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This seems reasonable. Although since build points are a meta-thing anyway you could allow people to spend build points and then divide up the gifts between the two? Although I'm not sure how that would work with having "consequences" for magi spending some of their build points on themselves. So maybe that's a bad idea?

Question One: Can increasing the Safety characteristic on a lab reduce the botch dice when experimenting to zero? The rules don't forbid it as far as I can tell, but that's just weird when stuff like Cautious Sorcerer and the Familiar bond can't reduce it to zero.

(ST EDIT)I cant find anything either, so I am incline to rule , yes its one of the things that can bring to 0 (Mastery does for spells)

Question Two: Does Cautious with Magic Theory apply to lab work? I think it should. That's the main place magic theory is used! This question and the first are because I want to reduce the botch dice on experimenting to zero. In general, having a character splatter randomly because of a bad roll on lab experimentation is unfun. I could deal with it, but still.
(ST EDIT) Yes it does. Also both Cautious Sorcerer and Golden cord apply in lab work, assuming you use spells

Question Three: Still wondering about the extended library rules. Do we need a expert bookbinder, scribe and illuminator to make a decent book? I dislike those rules for the record. This is important because it effects if I take good teacher or not. I'd like to make a decent author, but I'd also don't want to waste one of the precious virtue slots on something that just isn't possible.
(ST EDIT) I'll make a thread for it

Question Four: How much vis does a personal vis source produce?
(ST EDIT) 1/10 of starting covenant vis production, in this case 2 (not efficient)

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Hi all, sorry for the late post.

(ST EDIT) Hello and welcome!

My current ideas for a Magus: a Pralician ex Miscellanea heavily into Vim and probably Rego whose parens was a Theban Seeker who dragged the then apprentice to the Holy Land or Egypt (not set in stone), looking for ancient magics. There he met a terrible end, perhaps by a demon, perhaps by eternal cultists in a regio; my magus would also have some crippling scars as well. My magus returned recently to the Theban Tribunal, he's determined to gain power and knowledge to return and recover his parens remains. I might saddle him with a Deleterious Circumstance "when in a city", so he has a reason to travel to a secluded covenant; he might also be interested in the Thessalian Witches

(ST EDIT)Hmm hold up a second. Pralixian or just a magi with Comprehend Magic? Just asking cause I will have to add stuff and cults in the Campaign if Pralixian. I will not do Ancient Magic though (hate that book)

For Companion: a rowdy, manly, native Hunter/Guide with Ways of the Mountains, Social Contacts and perhaps Mountain Regio Network (from RoP: M, adapted for mountains), so very difficult to catch. I even thought of making him a Redcap, though I don't know if that would make him a second Magus, and thus a no-no.

(ST EDIT)Redcaps are allowed as companions if ungifted, sure but you will need to read Theban Tribunal book about them, they are political entities too, discuss this with me more if interested. The guide is good, but not the Network. Ways of the mountain is good too, may I suggest making him a Vlach?

If these concepts are agreeable, I will flesh them out a bit more.

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More questions: We aren't statting grogs out. Honestly, probably a good idea. Except what about combat then? Here is my proposal: All unstatted combat capable grogs act as clones of the vanguard in a group. If the vanguard is slain they scatter and are ineffective.

This makes combat capable companions important since they can act as vanguards.

Oh you mentioned non-human companion types. Does that mean using RoP: F for them and/or RoP: M?

I should go do IRL stuff.

(ST EDIT) >_< stop hyperventilating. Grogs will exist, they will be communal, they will be generic...until they are interesting, then they get named. And after that we can make official sheets for them. Till then, generic (unless you want some servant or such to be named). Non-human companions (excluding familiars) is a thing to be discussed...I am not saying yes or no, I'd rather avoid those books. I will say no to Holy/Unholy, infernalists, miracle workers. I might say yes for magical creatures, semi-humans, ungifted magical traditions if for Companions and if the story is good and the character playable

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Oh yeah, last thing: You say no writing Parma Magic and no writing Cult Lore. Is this a socially/violently enforced thing or is this a practical limitation that prevents it? For example, its possible that Parma/Cult Lore just can't be learned from a book, but its also possible that you get stabbed for making such a book. If its just that they can't be written down effectively then hurrah!

But if its a social thing it seems odd it would be uniform over cults. The Order making it a crime to make a Parma book is totally reasonable. But it seems a little strange that every Cult would bar writings. Some Cults are fractured awfully fractured (Merinita), and some consider their Cult Lore self-hiding (Crimion), and there are other possibilities. Even if you want to change those details from the TL book, and make every Mystery Cult more paranoid, what if the PCs decide to manufacture their own Cult?

I will say that not having Parma Magic books will make it a lot harder to increase Parma.

(ST EDIT) In this campaign:
-[tab][/tab]Parma books can be physically written. Everyone is paranoid to, and their parens explained it to them extensively. The Quaesitores (or iarche in this Tribunal) will have your @$$. Its just that dangerous to exist.
-[tab][/tab]Cult Lore books can be physically written. Again paranoia. The Order probably wont mind, the Cult will
-[tab][/tab]Cult abilities cannot be increased from a book. You might find writings, research said writings and get an ability of 0, but you need a teacher or xp to learn more

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This is for Graham's Verditius.

Confraternity of Roland states the ability is Craft: Blacksmith with a specialization on swords. Main book says craft is defined by medium (iron, gold, marble etc). C&C pg 64 tries to clarify things, and probably has armors and swords in Craft: Steel. What should we use here?

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Thanks!

Actual Pralician. If you feel it's too much trouble, I will change the concept slightly. Wasn't looking at the Ancient Magic book as such, to tell the truth, it was just background fluff.

(ST EDIT 2) Hush, you do your Pralician. (Heads off to make some non-Hermetic cults)

Sounds good, I have skimmed over The Sundered Eagle, and will read it in more detail.

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Question on spell and spell casting

  1. Using quiet magic (x2), is it possible to use other vocal sounds (animal sounds) to determine voice range? Or does the voice range have to be determined by the spell's formula?

(ST EDIT)Main book pg 83, no voice= no range (caster only). That means unless you can make sounds voice range is problematic. Hence HoH:MC 27-28 Sensory magic. In this mystery you use a sound as a range, including sound. So instead of chanting and reaching with Voice, you do silent casting and roar like a lion, affecting people. At least thats how I see it, I could be wrong. Any thoughts?

The sound target does not solve any problems here, since a spell which can affect an individual at voice range suddenly affects everyone within earshot. While sound target is useful, it really has very little in common with voice range.

The question is if unintelligible sounds can fuel the voice range, while still taking the -10 penalty for not using the words of the spell, or offsetting the penalty with quiet magic or spell mastery.

To me an animal roar/screech/meouw is a voice, or at least may very well be a voice for magical purposes. What it cannot do is to work magic through words, that takes intelligible speech. As we know, words is a powerful medium of magic. Quiet magic has two benefits. (1) you can be silent, and (2) you do not require intelligible words. So, the question is, does the voice range depend on words (2) or just the sound of the voice (1). I think both interpretations make sense.

But speeking of mysteries, I cannot wait to learn sensory targets and invent the level 40 version of Incantation of Lightning with Sound Target. Scary. :slight_smile:

Cr(Re)Au30 Wings of Soaring Wind [ArM5, p 126]
The description is strange, it seems to assume personal range, while the stats say touch range. Can it be applied to inanimate objects (such as an eagle's luggage) instead of the magus himself? Alternatively, what level would a variant for inanimate objects be?

(ST EDIT)Ok, this one is Touch, which means: a) you can use it on another person/target, but you still need to concentrate. The target is Individual, yes you can cast on an object. Can you carry the luggage with you on air? Yes and no. You will need to concentrate (following the finesse concentration rules of the spell) and you will need to keep it away from you, as the winds will affect your eagle's flight. b) As touch you need to pass Parma in cases.
This is a bad spell. Its so high lvl because it should be ReCo and has faults in it (concentration and finesse). On the other hand its perfect for items that keep concentration for you. I think thats the original intent and thematic purpose. Thoughts?

I am aware of the risks. That does not necessarily make it a bad spell, but you have a point in that I may want to consider ReTe alternatives.

I guess the spell could be interpreted as affecting the wind, at touch range, to move the caster in particular, so that a variant would be needed to move anything else, although the range might or might not be touch.

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He will want craft:Steel as it is arms and armour he is interested. Would Armathwaite and Armour count as a minor magical focus for your game? It is just that in Magi of Hermes book but is also just Swords in the HoH:MC Verditius, confraternity of Roland. Need a call on this please.

(ST EDIT)Craft: Steel (swords) it is then. Mind you, you will need some Leatherworking for armor (even chain mail needs a padding gumberson underneath to be complete. A trait of 1-2 is fine, you just incorporate someone else's work into the final product, what do you think?).
Hmmm :S . Minor Magical Focus: Arms (includes melee weapons, ranged weapons, shields and lances. Minot Magical Focus: Armor (Includes the heavy main pieces, outfittings, barding, even construction re-inforcement) Sorry

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So proposal for the charter. If there aren't enough labs for the new magi each get a lab in their own sanctum we should just set up all the lab spaces for transient use. Say each magus/maga is entitled to two seasons (one?) of lab use a year, after they've spent two seasons either setting up or all available space are used up. They can get more time if the labs aren't being used at capacity obviously. But between the visiting "guests" and already being short on lab space there probably won't be enough for everyone. We should share.

Alternatively we could create a series of labs set up like this:

Virtues and Flaws: Elementary, Outdoors, Natural Environment, Greater Feature, Greater Focus, Spacious
Characteristics: Size+0 Refinement+0, General Quality-5, Upkeep: -1, Safety +0, Warping +0, Health -2, Aesthetics+2
Specialties: One Activity+7

They take three seasons (one for the elementary lab, one for the greater feature) to create. The health will hurt in a decade or so, but if we don't have enough buildings by then we should just give up.

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Craft: Armor covers everything involved with armor. The metal, wood, and leather required to make it. HoH:S 131 Craft Magic example of making a heater shield, which is metal, wood, and leather. It also covers making it look nice.

(ST EDIT) Correct. But he doesn't want two different Crafts, he wants one. Hence craft:steel he will be making weapons and armors and shield of steel. He will need a little leatherworking to fit leather in the armors that need it. Less focus and xp drain this way I think. Thoughts?

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I tried to remedy this by making a character that wouldn't need lab space. Then a character which would live in a caravan and not want a lab for a while.

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The character creation guild lines need updated, it says all religions are allowed. Zoroastrians aren't allowed.

(ST EDIT) I did not say 'i do not allow Zoroastrians'. I said 'I do not allow Magian Heratige virtue'.
Second point ''State what your characters' religion is and how devout or not they are. Any religion is fine. Some flaws based solely on religion are not allowed (like unbaptized or pagan) while others that also deal with race are (like outcast, outsider for jews, muslims etc)''
Magian is a Virtue in a book outside the three HoH and Main. I do not want it. I do not want characters based on stuff outside those four books, with exceptions that I stated. Is that more clear?

You asked why I was stuck a Fire Jinn

When I said "Fire is Holy" you doubled down on hate for the character and said no Holy characters. The character wasn't Holy, she was devout to her religion. Which Fire is venerated. So if considering Fire is holy means she is a holy character, all Zoroastrians are then excluded.

I simply posted it as a Virtue to be accepted or denied. I argued with your reasoning because I had no intent on making her Holy. Is that clear?

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I am aiming for armour rather than weapons as the focus of the new confraternity. Are you saying I need craft:Leatherworking as well Craft:Steel to produce armour?
If this is true I will end up buying under armour/padding and then creating the metal comments myself as I am using my craft ability to aid lab total for the metal. If I can't separate the creation/enchantment like this I am going to really struggle to create a viable character. The other option is to only take Craft:Leather (Armour) and only make non metallic armour, which may suit magi better anyway?

(ST EDIT) Again.

  • Take Craft: Steel. This allows you to make steel weapons, armor and steel shield using Craft: Steel
  • Take Craft: Leather 1 (one) to be able fit leather into armors (like the under armor and chinks etc, just one point)
  • If you want to make a completely leather armor you use Craft: Leather (Quilted fur, Heavy Leather). For the rest, metal and part metal use Craft: Steel only.
    is that clear? Thoughts?

Now IF you want solely armor, get Craft: Armor and be done with it, make any armor you want, plus outfitings (no weapons, no shields)

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The character creation guild lines need updated, it says all religions are allowed. Zoroastrians aren't allowed.

(ST EDIT) I did not say 'i do not allow Zoroastrians'. I said 'I do not allow Magian Heratige virtue'.
Second point ''State what your characters' religion is and how devout or not they are. Any religion is fine. Some flaws based solely on religion are not allowed (like unbaptized or pagan) while others that also deal with race are (like outcast, outsider for jews, muslims etc)''
Magian is a Virtue in a book outside the three HoH and Main. I do not want it. I do not want characters based on stuff outside those four books, with exceptions that I stated. Is that more clear?

You asked why I was stuck a Fire Jinn

When I said "Fire is Holy" you doubled down on hate for the character and said no Holy characters. The character wasn't Holy, she was devout to her religion. Which Fire is venerated. So if considering Fire is holy means she is a holy character, all Zoroastrians are then excluded.

I simply posted it as a Virtue to be accepted or denied. I argued with your reasoning because I had no intent on making her Holy. "Is that clear?", why are you always snotty?

(ST EDIT 2) Right, you asked about Magian and I answered about Magian. Now you jumped and mixed the Fire Jinn.
I asked why are you so fixed on fire, because your character is clearly aligned with wind (both the Tempestria-like tradition and dancing)
You answered ''because Fire is Holy'' and a link
To which I said, I don't do Holy, as per character creation guidelines. And you had Magian Lineage and Avestan, which kinda makes her a priest.
Now, again.... please do not go for name calling. For the third time, do you want to make a viable character following my character creation guidelines?