OOC: Covenant finances

Retired Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: In the Ruins of Bibracte
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I've been working, as best I can, through the details of Mons Electi income and expenditures. I've gotten to the point where I realized what additional information I need to draft up a financial statement. Your help is greatly appreciated!

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Job 1: cataloging the specific people known to be at Mons Electi. I went through the wiki and the grogs thread here, trying to find everyone who is known to be at Mons Electi. I'm sure this is far from a perfect list. Please let me know of anyone I've missed, or miscategorized, or included at Mons Electi who shouldn't be there. The categories below are sometimes hard to fit to particular NPCs; for the purposes of expenditure we're supposed to put every inhabitant into exactly one category as best we can.

Magi: Alexei, Fiona, Isen, Jacques, Korvin, Marcus, Moro, Tranquillina, Viscaria
Companions: Ivor MacBride, Pierre Legris, Wilhelm
Specialists/apprentices: Alexandria, Gunnar Stockhausen, Henri, Otto, Sheelagh, Theraphosa, Ulrich; unnamed linguist, scribe
Craftsmen: Blanche, Chastity, Eloise Lainniere, Gaston Lainnier, Helmut Siggismund, Rashid; unnamed beekeeper, candlemaker, cooper, glassblower, percamenarius, stablemaster, toolsmith, vintner
Dependents: Guilheum Gastoneau, Patience
Grogs: Brione De Rey, Claude, Falko, Jehanne, Jolanda, Michelle Le Rouge, Vin Diesel
Laborers: Catrin, Daffyd, Deykin, Seumas mac Torcaill, Wen
Servants: Adeline, Elena, Giorgio, Jean-Claude, Mélanie, Moire
Teamsters: --

Uncategorized, possibly not at Mons Electi: Dominic, Elain ap Bleddyn, Mufarrj, Osster the [strike]Grouch[/strike] Bear; jebrick's random grogs
And I haven't figured out yet: where do Hiems and Cygna fit into the story?

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Job 2: total number of inhabitants. The complication here is that we haven't of course listed out the number of shepherds, parchment-makers, servants, etc. that are just assumed to be around and underfoot. So I'd like to poll you to see what you consider the population of Mons Electi to look like.

Counting named NPCs, unnamed NPCs, and "behind the scenes" inhabitants of Mons Electi that aren't listed anywhere:

  • How many dependents (for example, non-working children) do we have?
  • How many grogs (soldiers) do we have?
  • How many horses do we have? From the wiki, the answer seems to be 41.
  • How many laborers (for example, shepherds) do we have?
  • How many servants do we have?
  • How many teamsters (people who buy supplies from elsewhere, or haul wool for sale) do we have?
    Some of these categories have minimum numbers from the Covenants rules, but I'd like to hear your impressions untainted by the rules. I certainly won't take your guess and turn it into some huge deficit unthinkingly.

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Job 3: some random questions that arise.

Does Theraphosa use writing materials (for example, does she lead any laboratory work)? Other than the magi, Helmut Siggismund, and an unnamed scribe, would anyone at the covenant fall into the category "magus, scribe, bookbinder, or illuminator" in terms of using a large amount of writing materials?

What is the typical equipment for any unnamed grogs in the turb? Do they use expensive equipment, standard equipment, or a mix? (see ArM5 pages 176-7)

Three of the magi's laboratories are statted out on the wiki: Fiona's is listed as Upkeep +2, Tranquillina's as Upkeep +0 (to start at least), and Viscaria's as Upkeep +1 (until 1224 at least). What is there to know about other magi's labs? Should the default assumption be Upkeep +0? Are there any extra labs, or just one per magus?

Specifically in terms of the general living conditions present at Mons Electi, would it be more accurate to call it a Spring or Summer covenant? (This is both a roleplay-setting question and also mechanical, in that better living conditions are more expensive but make for better aging rolls.)

Covenants makes a distinction between "common craftsmen, such as blacksmiths, leatherworkers, and brewers" and "rare craftsmen, such as glassblowers, goldsmiths, and percamenarii". How would you sort the following craftsmen into those categories? beekeeper, candlemaker, cooper, silversmith, stablemaster, toolsmith, vintner

Mons Electi, by virtue of its Major Boon Wealthy, has a Legendary source of income, which is described in Covenants as a baseline of 1000 pounds of silver per year. However, when discussing Lesser or Typical sources of income, Covenants (page 56) suggests modifying those amounts upwards by 15% per magus over 6 at the covenant (or downwards by 15% per magus under 6). Should we make a similar modification to a Legendary source?

Amul suggested that Rashid the spidersilk weaver be treated as a Trivial source of income, one that might develop in cool ways over time. I think it's a nice idea. Are people okay with that?

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More later busy morning.The resources listed are covenant resources there to meet the demands of the magi...

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The random grogs are trying to put names and kind of skills on the 38 grogs we got from Atsingani. So those are 38 mounted grogs. basically light cav as they ride to battle and dismount.

Crossbows and then common hand weapons is what they came with.

IMHO Common - Beekeeper, CandleMaker, cooper, Stablemaster. Rare - silversmith, toolsmith, vinter.

Beekeeper is a back and forth for me. Having kept bees myself I do not find it to be a full time job.

The rares require special skill or tools. Cooper and vinter go together as part of the wine making. I will eventually have an adventure to hire an illuminator because we are very close to having the skills to make books.

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Looking through the list of characters.

Specialists/apprentices: Ulrich is not at Mons Electi anymore, he's in residence at the Covenant of the Phoenix, in sunny Ibera. He is apprenticed to Ra'am ex Bonisagus.

Laborers: Deykin started out as a Laborer, but he's actually part of the turb now.

Uncategorized, possibly not at Mons Electi: Elain and Osster were associated with Laetitia the Quaesitor, whose player left the forums entirely some months ago. I think Elain and Osster went with her.

Hiems and Cygna are returning to Phoenix, so they will have "Special Guest Star" status in any stories.

When I equipped Deykin, I gave him Standard (I think because I asked and that's what I was told).

I don't remember us providing any extra labs. But all the labs are Size +1...at least the original ones, I don't know about the "newer" labs.

I think it feels more like a Summer covenant than a Spring.

Common: beekeeper, candlemaker, cooper, stablemaster, toolsmith (which would be a specialization of blacksmith?), vintner
Rare: silversmith

For what it's worth, in the Albion saga, Cygna learned beekeeping to re-establish a source of income, and Arya had her dedicate every summer to maintaining the hives and doing whatever is is beekeepers do to keep the money coming in.

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The following people are not counted for income purposes, as they are assumed to be part of the community generating Legendary wealth, and are not maintained by our covenant: Wilhelm, Catrin, Daffyd, Deykin Seumas, Wen

Mufarrj is a Companion. Specialist, I guess you'd label him.

Ulrich no longer lives at Mons Electi. Hiems and Cygna are NPC magi from another covenant.

Elain and Osster left with their magi.

Please add any details you find to the wiki.

And I haven't figured out yet: where do Hiems and Cygna fit into the story?

The number-crunching goes the other way. Until we name a character and start treating them differently, they are just background noise that generates the base income.

IIRC, servants is a function of populace, necessary to run a medieval covenant. Teamsters/Laborers is a ratio that comments on the nature of the income we produce. Mons Electi buys the wool from independant farmers and then sells it to others, so we would have a lot more teamsters than laborers.

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Thanks to everyone for their comments, particularly amul's long post, a few points of which I'll respond to here.

Okay, can do. In fact I think I'll put the woolworkers Gaston and Eloise in this category too. Pierre can have Blanche and Guilheum as apprentices and I'll handle them using the workshop rules.

Definitely will do, once we converge on all the facts.

Maybe I'll go with exactly 38 + 9 shield grogs = 47.

Fair enough ... right now I'm working on the annual income/expenditures, without thinking about any initial outlay of silver stocks or how it was spent (about which I currently have no information). Turns out the annual expenditure is extremely inelastic to the quality of the turb's equipment (all reasonable choices differ by at most 5 pounds per year). Much the same is true of lab usage, for that matter. (By the way, where is the Magi Planner Google Doc?)

My interpretation of this 15% detail was always just a balancing mechanism for setting up covenant income, rather than any reflection on in-character attention by those magi....

Okay, well for now I'll let them help reduce income as craftsmen, until the workshop gets started - then we'll make them really earn their keep. :smiling_imp:

Another item: the 38 crossbowmen/light cavalry that the covenant acquired from Ashtangi (wherever that is). On page 18 of Covenants, it says that crossbowmen can be paid 9 pence per day (above the cost to house and feed them). Does Mons Electi pay its turb a wage of this sort?

At an ideal Summer covenant, all the non-background covenfolk are lavished with a great lifestyle (as alluded to in the sidebar on page 63 of Covenants). If it were necessary to balance the books, is Mons Electi willing to consider not increasing the quality of life for some of these people (for example, the 100 or so servants + teamsters necessary to sustain the covenant)?

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You forgot both Isen and Alexei's familiars (Helest, a horse, and cool-name-I-can't-remember, a giant mastiff).

I have Isen's lab somewhere, if I recall, it's quite blank, he did little of it, so it's probably upkeep 0.
ME = Summer Covenant, IMO.

Sorry, I don't have the time to answer the rest, despite it looking quite interesting :frowning:

Stands to reason, especially given the dangers we face.

Well, if we have no choice, we have no choice. But Adeline would fear that this would make them more susceptible to be bribed and to betray ME, and she'd convey that to Isen, who'd agree. So he'd like for someone else to find a solution to avoid this.

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I put Korvin's lab up on the Wiki.

Renaud is not listed but he travels a lot

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Apollodorus, before the rest of the magi came along, paid covenfolk rather well.

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The magi planner google doc is here. I'll see if I can find a good place to link it to from the wiki, also.

((edit - done. It's on the main page, at the bottom of the list of magi.))

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Not 38 + 9 = 47.

Alexei brought a small turb with him. It's possible some magi didn't bring any with them. Some covenfolk were brought here by magi who then disappeared. I forget how many, but definitely more than one. They're all listed in the Grogs thread. We'll need to scrutinize that for more details.

It might be easier to sort this by magi first, and categorize as we go from there, and then see who else is left.

Viscaria came with Theraphosa, Vin Diesel (shield grog), 2 forge companions (Rashid and Chastity), and the dependent Patience.

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Fiona came with Seumas and Moire (who now have a child). She also came with Ivor, who was the creation of a now-former player and has been more or less in limbo since he left.

The Clan of Daffyd (Daffyd, Wen, Deykin, and Catrin) came with Iosephus, but were scooped up by me when their player disappeared.

I have also created and run* Alexandria the Librarian, Henri the new autocrat, and Mélanie the Cursor, as well as my Companion Wilhelm the Woodsman, and the apprentice Ulrich (currently in Phoenix, in Iberia).

Hunh. Looking at the list of characters I've created, it seems kinda puny. I thought I had more than that.

(* I'm kinda quirky in this regard - I prefer to run the characters I make. I know technically, grogs are "community property", but I'm kind of possessive and prefer to run my characters myself, for the most part. Hope this is okay with everyone.)

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Ditto, save for those characters designed to be "generic". But when I invest a minimum... :-/

Isen came alone, his previous shield grog having been killed.

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Korvin brought Claude and Jolanda as shield grogs. Both are in the grog thread. Because Jolanda only speak Italian fluidly, she is kind of limited to Korvin. I will have to update her to add some Latin or french in her 5 years.

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Should we plan on having Korvin cast Bountiful Feast every year on our starting Vineyard? I'm guessing it would take several years of growing until we could produce wine in quantity.

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Alexei's future familiar is Donar, a dog of +2 size. But doesn't have him yet.

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All righty, a few miscellaneous questions:

  • What's the name and birth year of Seumas and Moire's child?
  • I had Ivor listed as a companion character - but if that player is no longer in the saga, how should we treat Ivor? (Companions are more expensive to maintain, for example.)
  • Renaud is a Redcap, right? How much of the year does he spend at Mons Electi?
  • What is Jacques's familiar?
  • What's supposed to go in the "Gifted Mercere defined" wiki page that hasn't been created yet?
  • Oh, and what's the strength of the magical aura at Mons Electi anyway? Is there one at all on the mundane side? And I gather that it's a special aura of some kind ("Rego-aligned")...?
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Looking at her MC file, Moire and Seumas actually have two children now, two daughters. Viviene was born in December 1221, and Meadhbh was born in January 1225.

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  • What's the name and birth year of Seumas and Moire's child?
  • I had Ivor listed as a companion character - but if that player is no longer in the saga, how should we treat Ivor? (Companions are more expensive to maintain, for example.) Ivor should be treated as a grog, for finance purposes. His companion-level stats just means he's a companion available for play.
  • Renaud is a Redcap, right? How much of the year does he spend at Mons Electi? Not yet determined in game, so I'd say he currently spends a negligible amount of time at ME, and should be ignored for finance purposes at this time.
  • What is Jacques's familiar? Crow, IIRC.
  • What's supposed to go in the "Gifted Mercere defined" wiki page that hasn't been created yet? A list of all the Mercere in the campaign world with The Gift, whom Korvin is contacting to invite to the Tribunal. Data was lost/corrupted/became uncertain when we lost a player (don't ask).
  • Oh, and what's the strength of the magical aura at Mons Electi anyway? Is there one at all on the mundane side? And I gather that it's a special aura of some kind ("Rego-aligned")...? Aura 5. Effectively 10 for Rego based activities.

Once Astingani disbands and Jacques joins us, we get 20 pawns of Herbam a year. So we can certainly afford the yearly 7 pawn expenditure for the spell. I think the question is whether or not Korvin takes an interest enough to do so without directives. Certainly, no one at Council has started talking about finances or the vineyard.

Would Korvin's Bountiful Feast also affect the honeykeeping situation? Our beekeeper is pretty sub-standard at Craft 3/Craft 3, but the wax from the honey bees, plus the candle maker, could be turned into yet another secondary industry providing wax tablets.

....or they could just be used to greatly reduce our own expenditures.

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All right, I've spent more time on this today than I really should have (job schmob), but I can announce two things.

First, I added a bunch of names to the wiki main page; my goal was to include every named inhabitant of Mons Electi (since I was tracking it already for finance purposes, and also because that sort of thing helps me get oriented to the new campaign). The great thing about a wiki is that all my mistakes can be easily fixed by anyone - go for it! :smiley: Also, feel free to make character pages for any NPCs who have been statted out, or at least link to their character post on this forum (like I did for a couple of grogs).

Second, there's still some quibbling in the third or fourth significant figure, but the total annual expentidure at Mons Electi works out to be roughly 1350 pounds per year. The major sources of expenditure, over and above the minimum we could get away with, are: (a) the 500 pound annual tithe to the bishop; (b) the 350 or so pounds annually going to wages for the crossbowmen; and (c) the 250 or so pounds we spend each year on giving everyone a proper Summer covenant lifestyle.

So burning question: where do we put the covenant's annual income :question:

(Also, a follow-up question from before: is Mons Electi's aura present on the mundane side, or just in the regio?)