OOC Discussion Thread

Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: Isle of Wrath
201

I've added 4 heavy cavalry/knights that belong expressly to Sir Raymond (they arrived with him when he was a mercenary). @RafaelB would you care to make a writeup for them and add it to the Veteran section? After that I think this will be going up into a new post in the character tracker thread.

Veteran Fighters

8 men, 2 from each covenant of the coalition. They have 7+ years of expertise as fighters, and are 30y old or older (qualifying for a score of at least 6 in their main weapon). They all have the Warrior virtue and the Covenant Upbringing flaw (to reflect the time each one has served in their respective covenant). It allows them a score in Latin, and Latin 2 (understanding orders) and Origin Covenant Lore 1 seems reasonable.

Since they came from different covenants, they can't act as a trained group, but the Turb Captain is working to fix that.

Their combat abilities are: Brawl 4, Single Weapon 6 (heater shield), Thrown Weapon 4 (javelin). Longmist men have Great Weapon 6 (pole axe) instead of Single Weapon, and use no shield.

Circulus Ruber men have the covenant’s belligerent attitude and have Leadership 3 (intimidation). One of them has Leadership 5, and just as Circulus Ruber considers itself to be the leader of the other covenants of Hibernia, he believes he should be the Turb Captain (and maybe he is?).
Longmist men are very happy to not be in a Winter covenant anymore. They expect explicit guidance from magi for anything. They use a pole axe and only have Partial Chain Mail, but they are Tough.
Lambaird men are proficient at hunting (Hunt 3) and know how to ride horses (Ride 1). They don’t understand the rigid hierarchy that exists in Inchmore and other covenants.
Vigil men know the Clesrada, meaning they know one Clesa each and have one Prohibition each.


Their physical stats are Str +1, Sta +1, Dex +2, Qik +2.

Combat Statistics are as follows:

  • Longsword: Init +2, Attack +13, Defense +13, Damage +7
  • Pole axe: Init +2, Attack +14, Defense +9, Damage +12
  • Javelin (thrown): Init +0, Attack +9, Defense +10, Damage +6

Soak: +10 (chainmail) or +10 (partial leather scale armor+tough)
Fatigue Levels: OK, 0, –1, –3, –5, Unconscious
Wound Penalties: –1 (1–5), –3 (6–10), –5 (11–15), Incapacitated (16–20)

Criminals

About 20 men (for now), all younger than 30 and most barely past 20 (older criminals either already have established themselves in their respective niches and aren’t seeking the magi backing, or are already dead).

Only about 1/3 has Martial Abilities (through Warrior or Branded Criminal), and most have access only to inexpensive equipment, with a handful having access to standard. None has access to expensive. They have no armor.

The basic ability spread is Brawl 5 (fist), Area Lore: Athlone 3 (shady areas), Leadership 2 (Intimidation) and Single Weapon 3 (hatchet) for the martial inclined. The ones that did not commit violent crimes have different assorted skills at ranks 3 to 5 (Athletics, Legerdemain, Guile, Profession: Apothecary and Survival are a few that come to mind).

The strongest and most aggressive one has assumed the role of leader of those men. He is barely reaching his 30’s, has Leadership 5, Single Weapon 5 and standard equipment.

Their physical stats (for the martial inclined) are Str +1, Sta +1, Dex +2, Qik +2.

Combat Statistics:

  • Fist: Init +1, Attack +8, Defense +8, Damage +1
  • Kick: Init +0, Attack +7, Defense +6, Damage +4
  • Hatchet: Init +1, Attack +9, Defense +6, Damage +5
  • Axe: Init +2, Attack +12, Defense +8, Damage +7 (if access to standard weapons)

Soak: +3 (heavy leather) or +5 (metal reinforced leather, for the informal leader)
Fatigue Levels: OK, 0, –1, –3, –5, Unconscious
Wound Penalties: –1 (1–5), –3 (6–10), –5 (11–15), Incapacitated (16–20)

202

Sure. How does this sound?

Raymond's Mercenaries

Characteristics: Int -1, Per +1, Pre 0, Com 0, Str +2, Sta +1, Dex +2, Qik +2
Combat:

  • Longsword: Init +3, Attack +15, Defense +15, Damage +8
  • Lance (horseback): Init +2, Attack +15, Defense +14, Damage +7
  • Javelin (thrown): Init +0, Attack +9, Defense +10, Damage +6

Soak: +10 (chainmail) (+13 (chainmail + Tough) for Conall, see below)

All have Warrior and Ride 3. Stats assume Single Weapon 9 (including specialization) (either accounting for additional XP coming from adventures under Raymond or from Puissant Single Weapon) and Thrown Weapon 5 (including specialization).

Richard is the second in command to Raymond's group. He speaks a poor Gaelic with a heavy French accent and has Leadership 4 (second only to Raymond).
Conall is from Munster. He is Large and Tough, and acts as the vanguard for their group.
Bran was born in Dublin. He has some expertise in mending broken bones (Chirurgy 4).
Flann is a Connatcha. He sings like a bird - a crow, that is.

203

So I was going over the census for the tribunal and I felt like some of the numbers were off. I know @Vortigern more or less took the Order's numbers and divided by the number of tribunals, but I feel like we need to make some adjustments.

Hibernia Tribunal Census

Total Tribunal Population: 93

Bjornaer: 3 - It's low, we know that Clan Mac Tire is made up of 7, so at a minimum this number needs to go up to that.

Bonisagus: 8 - Honestly feels a bit high? But only by like 2 or 3? Again, Hibernia is supposed to be isolated Hermetically speaking, but not super worried.

Criamon: 2 - One is detailed already. No strong feelings either way.

Ex Miscellanea: 16 - Feels low if I'm being honest. This is Ex-Misc country after all, they should be easily be the largest.

Flambeau: 12 - Feels about right.

Guernicus: 5 - Feels high. Hibernia isn't huge, and we already have two cannon Qs and my Tremere. I might drop it to 2 plus an apprentice or something?

Jerbiton: 6 - Feels extremely high given how isolated Hibernia is from anything culturally. I could see like... 2 maybe?

Mercere: (3 Gifted magi, 13 Redcaps) - Given the absolute scarcity of Gifted Mercere, and again, the isolated nature, I'd drop it to 1, and tie them in with the Cult of Heroes stuff going on.

Merinita: 18 - Totally tracks. This is Fae central after all.

Tremere: 6 - Feels way too high, especially given how isolated Hibernia is from Hermetic politics at large. We've got three that we know about in cannon, and mine, which feels more than sufficient.

Tytalus: 10 - Actually makes a fair bit of sense given all the conflict.

Verditius: 4 - Don't have particularly strong feelings here

I'm in favor of upping the Ex-Misc by whatever we drop from the others. Though I'd also be more than happy to simply drop the others and not expand at all. It's not like Hibernia is a particularly large tribunal after all.

204

I think this makes sense. Looking again, it's a bit weird to have more Merinita than ExMisc.
A few additional thoughts:

Ex Misc: agreed, 16 is low. I can easily see double that for Hibernia. Including a handful of powerful hedge practioners.

Merinita: actually, I could see less working. 18 is about 1/4 of them in Hibernia, that seems a bit much. Drop to 11? That's still 1/6. We still need a bunch of Merinita for Rhine, Thebes, and a handful scattered around other Tribunals.

Guernicus: on the other side, exactly for being "lawless" and rich in conflict, Hibernia would be a place where Guernicus and quaesitors are much necessary. 5 is actually on the low side.
I'd propose 5 Guernici, and another 5 quaesitors from other houses (Nithyn's Tremere being one of them), but only because Hibernia is isolated. My heart says 10 Guernici + 5 quaesitors.

Verditius: since the Tribunal is rich in vis and should have a surplus of hedge-enchantments, their abilities shouldn't be as valued as in other Tribunals, so I'd easily go down to 2 or 3.

7? Is that in TCI?

205

They are Bjornaer Clan/Group that are enemies of Longmist iirc.

It is kind of far away from their traditional centers of power, so I might be inclined to agree.

Concur.

This seems likely as well. I would expect the highest concentrations of Ex Misc. to be Hibernia, Stonehenge, and Loch Leglean.

It seems necessary then to distinguish between residents that were native before any political turmoil and fallout after Praesis, those who might be part of the Continental Reform movement, and those who might have come afterwards in reaction to Praesis and whose real goal is preventing a new schism.

Also I would expect that the usual methods of encouraging new Q/G apprentices to settle in troubled areas etc. are rather slow. Praesis only occurred roughly 2 years ago if I am remembering correctly. So I think there could be a small faction in the Guernicus/Qs that are supporting the Reform, a small faction that are concerned about stability and conflict, and a large majority that are like ... where is Hibernia again?

Thoughts?

206

This makes sense.

Pre-Praesis: 3G (Visioturpis (pro-Hibernia), Lugardis (pro-Hibernia) and another (Continental)) and 3nGquaesitores (1 Hibernia, 1 neutral, 1 Continental)
Pos-Praesis: 5G and 5nGq (adding 2G that want to avoid a schism, 1 Continental nGq and @Nithyn's Tremere)?

5nGq: I suggest for 1 from the Younger House, 1 Merinita, 1 Tremere (Hibernian side) and 1 Tytalus, 1 Bonisagus (Continental).

207

I went looking for a little guidance on this issue since we appear to not have a consensus (in fact having seemingly rather divergent views).

My reservations here contrarywise are that Hibernia is a geographic and political hinterland/backwater to the rest of the Order. Prior to the political division becoming severe and a Covenant being destroyed I think mostly Hibernia was not often a place thought of by outsiders. I would compare it to Novgorod (in terms of that distance/separation and deprioritization) but with a higher population of Magi.

I think we should be starting from a position of being likely deeply undermanned compared to "normal" numbers. Remembering that Hibernia is a geographically distant hinterland, politically equally isolated, and physically small, I think these things all relatively contribute to an initial set of quite low starting numbers.

The Continentals however also present themselves as desiring political and legal reform. Bringing some legal backing with them so to speak is arguably a reasonable part of that. Something to legitimize their efforts.

Praesis I think we can reasonably say is something that would be something to concern some Qs, if they have heard of it. But would they have heard of it? And how would they respond if they did? It is a recent Wizard War in a hinterland Tribunal. I wouldn't expect that it is the highest priority amongst the Gs/Qs, or even necessarily the biggest piece of news comparatively.

It is important to note that there are other conflicts and crises happening in Mythic Europe right now at the same time. There is the Iberian Reconquista, the Crusade in Provencal, the Crusades in the Levant, the aftermath of the Crusade in Thebes, as well as the perpetual concern about the Orders of Suleiman and Odin etc. The list could be longer I am sure.

Hibernia is one topic on a long list of possible concerns. That said ... there would be some interest, but judging how much is difficult.

There are three factions I could see developing in the Qs regarding Hibernia. Which I see those as two sets of partisans (Traditionalists/Continentals) and those who might be trying to deescalate and prevent growing violence now that a Covenant was destroyed by war. I think of them as basically those who want to prevent another Schism from starting.

Though there is also the additional issue that the Continental movement themselves are having, and that is ... they need somewhere to live right now while they aren't actually in charge. They don't strictly speaking need Covenant membership since Hibernia allows Independents, however they also don't want to be exposed and vulnerable in a place they know is rather hostile to them. There is a reason there is such a concentration of them at Ashenrise right now, and that is strategic despite being something I think is starkly uncomfortable and resource straining for them. (Reasons I wouldn't expect that to last very long.)

Any newcomers attracted by recent events would face similar resource/availability issues and distrust from the locals.

So where does all of that leave us? I'll take a crack at some numbers myself. I doubt I can please everyone.

Pre-Praesis & Continental Movement: 3 Gs, 1 NG (This is low, and it is low on purpose, because of the unique attributes of the Tribunal.)
Continentals: 1 G, 1 NG
Anti-Schism: 1 G

Total: 5 Gs, 2 NGs (+1 NG for our soon to be PC, so 3)

I think both ability and willingness to take part in a partisan action that is politically contentious that also entails leaving behind your Covenant and "place in the world" is basically a big ask and not standard operating for Qs. Usually spreading Qs where they are needed takes time, but ... that said I don't think the number would be zero.

This would bring a Tribunal used to having a rather low presence up to almost but not quite a "normal" presence.

Thoughts?

Lets see if we can find numbers we all can agree on and feel comfortable with.

208

Please, do not take my position to be one of divergent views.

More critical to me than the number of quaesitors is what this number means for the short/medium term future in terms of how disputes between Hibernian, Continental, Coill Tri and Supernatural factions are primarily solved, and what kinds of disputes get priority at the Tribunal.

This is fair, and my heart failed to account for that previously. 10 G is hardly going to be possible.

I'll add that Lugardis was sent to Hibernia because the Continentals did not trust the available quaesitorial presence. To me this points to 2 Guernicus (Visioturpis, +1 Continental with not enough voice) and... some nGq. How much is "some" is debatable.

This I will offer some pushback in the spirit of a good debate. Every covenant is visited by the Mercere at least 1/season, and the fall of Praesis kinda was something to write home about. There has been more than enough time for the notice to spread at least among the politically inclined magi (which should mean almost all of the Guernicus and quaesitores, most of the Tremere, several of the Tytali, a handful of the Trianomae... you get it). So yeah, many should have heard that a Wizards War was declared on an entire covenant in Hibernia and it fell, even if they aren't quite sure of where Hibernia is.

Another fair point.

On the basis that what happened was entirely legal, Magvillus should send some people just to make sure things aren't getting out of hand (like increasing police in an area after a big event), but not as much as if this was crisis protocol.

All in all, 5G +3nGq seems a fine number for me.

209

I agree that Magvillus would bump up the Q presence, but the question then becomes, how much of that 'deployment' (of sorts) is temporary? Assuming things don't get worse.

210

Alrighty, good news bad news. And @Vortigern might kill me for this. Thankfully he already knows.

We've obviously done a lot of talking about Qs and the like in the past week or so (especially the two of us behind the scenes) and I think the concept I've got is fun, but won't quite work. A Q has to be (or at least appear to be) far more neutral than I'd like my character to end up being. I'm very much pro-Hibernian like the rest of the covenant. Second, and while I know you said you were alright with it @RafaelB the character gets far too close to your area of specialty. And I'm absolutely 1000% a firm believer in niche protection. And finally, as BSG, I didn't want my character to be the default choice for anything social.

Anyhow, while @Vortigern was busy trying to suppress his urge to murder me for changing concepts again, we were discussing an Ex-Misc Beast Master. Long story short, think Summon Animals + Fertility Magic. Dude wants to make his own menagerie of animals.

I'm headed off into the wilds myself here in a few hours, but I've got the core stuff down and just need to write up the backstory. Which I'll hopefully have done by Sunday night. This is very much a priority to me, and I'm hoping to have the character done and reviewable by then.

@callen Sorry to rug pull you again my friend! Hopefully you weren't too far into the concept for a companion.

211

Totally understand it. I'm convinced that the more time we spend thinking about things, the more things are prone to change. I mean, I can't pick Atheus spreadsheet without the urge to swap something.

Not to discourage you from your new concept (which seems hella nice), wouldn't just dropping the Q side of the Tremere fix things?

While we are talking about niche protection and changing concepts, @callen I see Ciara has some initial investment on Auram. Do you want to make it one of her main Arts? If so, I think I'll change my hedge wizard to something that doesn't step on her toes.

Albeit it might also be interesting to see how two similar but distinct skillsets deal with problems.

212

Double checking, since I had forgotten. This is what we are using for auras? Meaning, our Magic Aura 6 will add 12 to lab totals?

213

I've been thinking about that, and waffling to myself back and forth honestly. I had thought to myself that I didn't think Auras (good or bad) really felt very impactful when I wrote the adjusted table. But that said ... I've been thinking that +12 is ... more than impactful.

214

Recovery from surgery hasn't been going great. Overall, things will eventually be fine. But I haven't been in great shape for over a week and am now behind on family, work, and home stuff. Between fully recovering and catching up o things, I don't think I'll be online much for another four weeks, give or take.

215

Thank you for letting us know and best wishes for your recovery. Here is hoping all goes well.

216

I might just take the x2 multiplier off of all the bonus entries, but retain the the rest. Thoughts?

217

Keeping the x2 helps hedge wizards attain higher casting totals, and therefore, be more powerful, which I think is desirable in this setting.

It's also good for us, of course. An extra +6 over the calculations I was doing is very welcome, and hard to refuse.

However, it does messes up with some explicit or implied assumptions in the numbers. Eg., I just noticed it applies to study from vis. Consider our aura of 6. There's a large difference between an average of 12 (6+stress roll) and an average of 18 (12+stress roll).

It also devaluates virtues and flaws such as Cyclic Magic, Free Study, Inventive Genius, Method Caster, Creative Block, Potent Magic and a handful of others.

I'm sure we will discover other tidbits over the course of the saga.

All in all... I think keeping it brings no big trouble, we will just find some odd numbers from time to time. If the problem is us having a +12 we could just reduce our Aura to 3 (the bonus total would still be +6).

And if the x2 proves to be a problem due to some unforeseen circumstance, we can always retcon and drop it later.

218

4 weeks... A Medium Wound then, huh?

Joke aside, wish you a quick recovery callen!

219

My core motivation in originally writing it was that I wanted Auras to be significant, including the decision to head off into one that is hostile to you / your magic. Whereas doing magic "at home" as it were makes a large difference.

It also drives home the importance of magical sites for Covenants, and why some Magi would be willing to commit violence in order to defend them and their Auras. Because they are supposed to be these critical things in the world but largely the bonuses and penalties are rapidly outweighed by many other factors. My sense was that they just become a very minor bit of arithmetic and that I felt was something that detracted from the setting.

If you like the x2 then that makes me feel a lot more confident about keeping it.

Thoughts?

220

Yes and no. It solves the whole political Q angle, but it doesn't address my biggest issue, which would be niche protection. Again, didn't want to step on toes. Plus I'm having too much fun with this concept.

That said, I definitely want to change up the animal handling hedge tradition. I like some of the beast handling stuff, but I think there's too much of an exclusive focus on it. I had more a general all around helper type (think a modified Folk Witch). Maybe Control Fertility, Healing, Animal Ken, Summon Animals, Shapeshifter, etc. What do folks think? Doesn't take too much of a change, but gives them a role inside the local communities etc.