Well stats are ultimately properties. Improving them “for real” requires the perfecting power of Creo. But I don’t see why shouldn’t have an easier time improving them strictly on a temporary basis with Muto. Not as a physical transformation (though that is another thing it can do) but as altering the properties involved directly. Which arguably on a temporary basis it should be better at than Creo.
Compare it to say the manipulation of the hardness of something, or weight, or cutting ability. We have spells that do all of those things as property manipulation. Many with Muto, some with Perdo or other techniques. And of course Creo.
I'm not sure I agree that stats are properties, but that might be an unproductive metaphysical discussion?
There is a matter of game balance. I think there's a reason easy guidelines for temporary stat changes don't exist, not for Hermetic magic at least. And save for Creo, no other Hermetic spell gives a flat bonus to stats. They do give bonus for assorted things in a range of situations though.
I also think there's a matter of gameplay, because guidelines for changing stats has an impact on how the game is played and on how the Order feels. Eg. every magus should easily gain a +5 Int in the lab from a MuMe enchanted device. We'd have higher quality books from writers with a +5 bonus to Com. Virtues such as Improved Characeristics or Great (Characteristic) a lot less valuable (and flaws to diminish them are less significant), since I can just overpower them with low level temporary spells. Etc, etc.
To bring an example from another TeFo combination. There was a ReVi guideline in 4th ed granting Magic Resistance, which I think is entirely reasonable, from a logical viewpoint. Nonetheless, it was removed from 5th ed. As far as I'm aware, the reason was gameplay.
That said, I don't see an inherent problem with Muto guidelines for directly changing stats, and they might not be gamebreaking (after all, they will just drown in the midst of several other spells that can grant bonus in specific situations). But I do think caution is required.
I think this is a necessary part of Creo manipulating them. But as the concern is more on the game meta level lets not waste time here.
There may be a certain point here (I'm sure there is more than one view here and not all of them will align, certainly), regarding whether it is intentional that Muto lacks direct Characteristic guidelines. I don't know that we can determine that definitively however. However in the interest of making sure we are well founded here I did some thinking and digging on this today at work. Let's start with a basic examination of Muto.
Here I think a legitimate question is what is meant by "Muto magic cannot affect the properties that something has naturally, although it can add other properties to mask their effects." as it seems to pertain significantly our scenario of Characteristic manipulation. So I went looking for examples.
It is clear however that Muto can manipulate the current properties of things and that those properties can be changed to an unnatural degree. Example spells like "The Edge of the Razor" (MuTe 20) manipulate a property that we rather take for granted a sword having such as sharpness and amplifying it. With several other examples that seem to apply similar principles.
So what does "cannot affect the properties that something has naturally" mean then? I think it means that Muto can not permanently alter something. The natural properties of the thing will always come back once the Muto effect is removed. Permanent alteration requires other Techniques.
So this is a valid concern. But it also begs the question. Characteristic manipulation exists in universe as is, it is simply a matter of how difficult it is that is the question. Setting aside whether my proposed scale for such buffing is appropriate (I think it is close but may be slightly off), the issue of why it isn't a standard feature in every laboratory is something just as valid to ask about the Creo method as any other. And I think a combination of the lab rules themselves and Warping tell us why.
Ongoing magical effects like a characteristic buff, if used over a season, inherently cause Warping. Moreso if the buff is a powerful one. Additionally spell use in the lab explicitly says it increases Warping or decreases Safety. I would not be inclined to say that is changed with a magical item for an effect that either completely includes the lab or that directly affects the Mage. To have effects that don't affect these ratings they need to be well designed discrete effects that do not constantly affect most of the lab (perhaps excluding Intellego of the right sort) and are not constantly active on the Mage.
I don't know about you but I would not be inclined to operate having to roll for lab mishaps or warped products on every single lab project in order to get (say) a +2 or +3 bonus. Some people might gladly do so but I expect their characters would be short lived. Essentially I think these practices would rapidly cause the accumulation of Warping and lab mishaps/warped work/lab explosions enough to be considered suicidal practices in the lab. Which I think that judgment applies equally to using Creo for these purposes, not just Muto.
Of course that is an altogether different question than whether my proposed baseline for such buffing was reasonable or desirable.
After 3 weeks of 3-4 hours of sleep a night I'm finally on a good track with 4 nights of nearly 8 hours apiece. That's helped me start catching up on family, home, and work. And I've started getting back online. It'll still take me a week or two to get caught up on all the life stuff, though.
I'd like to propose a goal date for opening for play of 21 August. This gives us roughly a month to finish out necessary characters/cast, and what few essentials remain aside from them. It also coincides not coincidently with me finishing my current school term and reducing my class load (and being near to the end anyway) and correspondingly I expect to have better availability.
I'd like buy-in regarding the date as a goal and then input from everyone regarding anything they perceive as still needing addressed before then to add to my list.
I will be on vacation from 05AUG to 25AUG, and I'm not yet sure how that's going to impact my overall availability, with the increased focus on the family, but I can have everything ready for 21AUG. Might just take some time to actually reply when we start playing.
My TODO list:
Atheus is finished, but I need to update his stats on his main thread.
Oh, and finish the list of 10 spells he is bringing to the covenant. I'm at 9 right now.
I'm still in the dark about my companion, mostly because I'm aiming for "perfect" instead of "good". I'll go for good, that should fix things.
I think I want to write up a couple of grogs for Atheus, nothing much.
If anyone thinks I'm missing anything, please point out!
I think this might be easier to understand in context with the following excerpt from the Perdo technique:
Thus, Perdo Corpus could remove a person's weight, while leaving the rest of his properties intact, and Perdo Ignem could make a fire unable to burn anything. Perdo alone can only destroy the whole of a natural property; making fire able to burn only wood would be Perdo with a Muto requisite (see page 311 for requisites), Perdo destroying the ability to burn anything, and Muto granting the ability to burn only wood, a property that fire cannot naturally have.
So I'd understand it as, you are limited in how you can affect properties with Muto. You can't, for example, change fire's ability to burn everything flammable into the ability to burn only wool, because that would be affecting the natural property of fire. But you can Perdo the ability to burn, and grant the ability to burn only wool through Muto. Of couse, this is a bit nitpicky.
But then, what about granting Soak through MuCo? Well, I'd say that this doesn't change the characteristic directly, if that makes sense? Eg. Gift of the Bear's Fortitude doesn't increase you Soak "directly". It makes your flesh tough, insensitive, and resistant to physical damage, and that is what actually gives you more Soak. "Edge of the Razor" doesn't change the sword property of "sharpness", it changes it's edge "to a degree unequaled by manual methods". Again, at this point I'm just splitting hairs. The actual "correct" answer is: if the guideline exists, Muto can do it. If the SG and the troupe are in accordance regarding the effect, the effect is valid.
I think this is intended to be for effects applied to the lab itself, not to the magus working on said lab (spells applied to the magus do have other effects beyond simply warping). But I agree that using Muto guidelines to improve characteristics wouldn't be a default. That was an overreaction from me.
I'm still wary of it's uses on a day to day basis though?
A Muto spell granting me an increase in Stamina would affect everything: spellcasting, Soak, recovery from wounds and diseases, fatigue rolls, every Stamina roll... etc, etc, etc. I can, in a broad and general manner, have that already, but it requires multiple spells/items. Getting all of those benefits from a single, potentially low level spell, seems a bit...
There is a matter of guideline level, for sure. If granting a +3 to Stamina using MuCo requires a Mag 10 spell, that's hardly any better, overall, than inventing a set of CrCo rituals to increase my Stamina by 3. It becomes a matter of preference.
As often, I speak a lot, but I'm not practical enough. Thanks for bearing with me, I guess? Let me try and be constructive.
That seems ok for specific buffs (eg. a general buff to Soak, or to jumps, or to climbing), with specific effects being adjudicated by the SG (I'm still wary of giving bonus to spellcasting, for example). For temporary stat increases I'd say this guideline is too strong. A +1 to Stamina is always better than +1 to Soak.
A minor virtue can give +3 to Soak (Tough) or increase Stamina by +1 beyond 3, which implies that those are roughly equivalent. So I'd tentatively say guideline 15 for a +1 to a physical characteristic, with each additional mag granting another +1.
Thus, a +4 Stamina @Per, Ind, Sun would be lvl 50. That seems borderline acceptable?
(I'd still lean towards too strong, maybe +1 guideline @MuCo 20 would be better in my head)
Playtest required to finetune it?
For Mentem (if we are also going that direction) Guideline 15 "Utterly change a person's mind" looks like a good start for a +1, and is in line with the above? Perhaps MuMe 20, same reason as above?
This seems contradicted by counter examples that we have like Edge of the Razor (MuTe 20, ArM5DE pg 361) and Boreal Flames (Mu(Pe)Ig 15, MoH pg 111). Edge of the Razor enhances the edge of a sword to give it a damage bonus, and I don't think we would consider holding an edge anything other than a natural property of a sword. Boreal Flames transforms a Pilum of Fire so that it inflicts Cold damage, and doesn't burn anything at all.
So either we have lots of examples that just aren't following that stipulation of Muto or the phrase means something else. I think the reference to Perdo is however a good one in that it brings in how Perdo functions with properties in the next paragraph.
This shows that Perdo can affect properties but only end states that are natural remain after the effect is complete. As an example you can destroy dirt, and it stays gone, because dirt can naturally exist or not exist. But making dirt weightless isn't a natural state for dirt, and thus violates essential nature. You can "temporarily" violate essential nature, with an ongoing magical effect, but you can't permanently change essential nature. Once the effect ends the essential nature of a thing reasserts itself.
An example of this with Muto might be transforming someone into a fish. There they are ghasping for air (water?) and "drowning" on dry land. They die. You release the spell, or it expires, and what happens? The person stays dead because they naturally can be alive or dead, this isn't a violation of essential nature. But they change back from a fish into a person, because their essential nature is still that of a person/human being.
But despite being human being a natural property of, well, humans ... you can totally change that with Muto and transform them into something else. You just can't make that change permanent. Which applies to a great deal of Muto.
Re: Lab Uses of Magic: I think it really depends on the spell. Overall however if you want it to impact lab totals, you are using it in the lab IMO.
I think a base of 15 for +1 is very reasonable and I like your reasoning. It also places more advanced uses of such buff spells into the realm of "Powerful Effects" and thus actively causing warping. Which perhaps is not such a bad thing.
I would also cap total effective ratings at natural caps of +5 I think?
I think daily use of anything causes warping. You can't regularly be casting anything on yourself (or someone else) all the time without warping happening. Buffing and warding etc. as preparatory magic per force has to be left inactive/unused most of the time when you are "at home" in order to avoid warping. Thus a "home" adventure (especially if unexpected) could find such people who have a lot of potentially layered effects unprepared. It is when you are planning to go out and do things, or know you are leaving the Covenant etc. that you have the planned/prep time to go through the process of casting all of your buffs/wards etc. And that typically then would only last until your adventure is done and you return home.
Boreal Flames does have a Perdo requisite to allow it to change a fire spell in the way it does, but yeah, I'm not fully invested in my attempted explanation either.
I'll need to grapple with this. Since constant effects warp the magus (and other effects have other downsides even if they don't directly warp), it just seems like penalizing the magus doubly for the same effect.
Your call, but makes sense, given that Soak goes up to +5 instead of being a general guideline "give Soak equal to magnitude of spell - 2".
My concern wasn't with warping when I wrote that, but with one single spell being mechanically equivalent to an "I win" button, overriding the need for dozen of other low level spells.
Take Atheus as an example. He doesn't cast his equivalent of Aura of Ennobled Presence every day, only when he thinks he will need the extra oomph. It gives him a +3 in very specific social situations. There are a bunch of similar spells he could invent that grant +3 to a bunch of other social situations.
Or, he can use two lvl 35 spells, one to get a blanket +3 to Com, one to get +3 to Pre. He will still use this only when needed, so warping is not an issue.
And if the counterargument to that is "lvl 35 is high", at the time I wrote the original concerns I was working on the basis of lvl 25 for Sun duration, lvl 20 for Diameter. That's trivial for any mildly specialized magus.
But anyway, I don't think (anymore) than anything will inherently break with those guidelines, but I do expect it to change a few numbers around.
Reminder that I don't have a Companion in the works yet, but am fine playing grogs instead. I'll circle back and make a Companion when it's clearer whether there are any roles at the Covenant that still need to be filled. Unless the gaps are already known?
I'll let either of you tell me if you're interested in making someone that wants to run around with a bunch of a Norse-Gaelic soldiers of fortune types, and I'll make my companion for the other person. Gives us our tri.
That sounds good.
Thinking about it some, I'd like to suggest resurrecting my previous companion concept of a University-trained Mythic Herbalist/Alchemist who becomes disillusioned with academia, joins the Hospitallers to make a difference, but then sees firsthand how they are associated with the subjugation of his native Ireland. He could then either become linked somehow with Ciara (as a Mythic Alchemist as callen suggested - I need to learn more about his potential usefulness to her, if we go this route), or with Einarr (as a Mythic Herbalist to help heal injured Norse-Gaelic soldiers of fortune), through shared goals and his own interest in learning about Hermetic Magic. Do either of these options look promising as concepts, or is one better than the other? If so, I'm totally fine with either path.
Both concepts look appealing! Are you also thinking of making them a learned magician? There's a gifted learned magician in Hibernia, who could work either as a teacher/mentor, or simply as a possible contact.
The only possible concern I think I would think might need addressed between you and @Nithyn for this concept is the overt Paganism of Einar, vs what one might expect to be more serious Divine orientation for a former Hospitaller. But ... I love the concept!
I would be inclined to agree. Einar is... very very pagan. That would be my biggest concern (even if the idea of a healer is always welcome!). But given that @callen was interested in alchemy, might be a better fit for his character?