Hi,
I will be in Korea next week, and might not have much time to access the web.
Also, I intend to maintain a lower rate of posting until Timothy returns.
Anyway,
Ken
Beginning to wonder myself. I hope all is well with him. He has posted in some other threads I've noted. So perhaps it is simply an issue of time and finding some of it to sit down and crunch numbers/plot for the game.
We should try to resolve the Sanctum agreement. That requires no SG, at least until we have a working model for a Quaesitore.
Okay, I'll bite - what do you think our characters are missing?
How does this miss the emphasis? If magi are specifically entering the sanctum as passengers, not as "subservients", then I don't see the social problem.
What else can we do but "use words"? How can a document have anything but "legal weight"? We can't dictate social perception except by clearly (re)defining the situation.
I would hope the Order is not like 3rd grade, where a male janitor entering the "girl's room" got a bunch of giggles and finger pointing.
How is this inadequate to avoid social taboos?
Personally I feel that this is more of an IC discussion. But I'll answer here if you prefer.
Second, the following is Scipio's opinion/perception... not precisely my own really. A less stringent ( read: retentive ) and formal character than Scipio wouldn't have a problem with things as they stand I think.
Scipio is concerned/believes (correctly or not at this juncture) that as long as the space is legal sanctum that the social stigma that the agreement is trying to prevent will remain... and that legally the document will have it's merits in question before any tribunal, should that ever have to occur.
A specific list of agreed upon (dis)allowed items, such as we tentatively have, is a close second... but to him still a second, because while it makes clear what we are trying to do ( and properly done will have a given level of legal merit subject to the consideration/fear stated above ) it leaves ( or as Iohannes would like specifically reinforces ) the space as a legal sanctum in regards to the 'guests'. Which he is distinctly uncomfortable with. This is why he suggested subinfuedation. Then the space is clearly a 'part of' the ship, and sanctum, but has it's legal character as a space/place altered in a substantive way.
The two options are really not that dissimilar in regards to 'most' of their language. Yet, ICly, Scipio considers them worlds apart. Because of that distinction ( a behavioral contract vs. a change in the legal standing of the space ).
Possibly, but there was no "discussion" going on, only Scipio tearing his hair out and expressing his exasperation. 
So, in a nutshell, he'd rather see it defined as a ship first, and a Sanctum second; i.e. that the Sanctum be protected as an integral part of the ship, and dependent upon the whole of that other, rather than to begin with the whole being defined as Sanctum, and require a document that relinquishes specific partial rights over selection portions of that whole.
I can see the diff, and it ~is~ significant.
The approach Vispilius suggested (naively, in retrospect, but he is no lawyer) still has magi ingratiate themselves to Iohannes on a Hermetic level, as trespassers seeking his approval and allowances. Otoh, if we were to assume the ship first, and the Sanctum second, the same magi make no such submissions to become passengers, but are still bound by the same strictures regarding respect for the ship as a whole, to avoid "depriving (Iohannes) of his magical power."
That is, he makes the decision to take on passengers as a captain first, and a magus incidentally, not the other way around. And the passengers are just that, passengers, but ones who must consider the Hermetic ramifications of their larger actions while shipboard.
That does work better, imo. If I've got it right, I have a feeling that V could easily be convinced. 
It means that Iohannes cannot claim the whole of it as his Sanctum, but any time he has passengers aboard he is not using the whole of it as his sanctum anyway. It would be a little like a studious and well-meaning mage declaring that they'll manage the library, and claiming the entire library of a Covenant as their sanctum. And every time the magi wanted to enter and study there, they'd have to ask permission and, in a sense, be his bitch, simply by the act of entering, regardless of any "understanding". Just not practical, nor desirable on any level, nor necessary under any rationale.
The ship is protected, in either way, to the same extent. There is no confusion that an unfriendly spell on one part of the ship does not threaten the rest of the ship, or crew - and that's the sort of thing that prospective Hermetic passengers agree to, on their Oath, not the other way around.
Close enough to what Scipio is thinking for me not to nitpick. 
...And I'm back.
Sorry, straight after Christmas is hell for librarians, and I'm a librarian. It's worse in this country than in other countries because Australia Day is also in January.
(Also, I was arranging security for my new house, and a pet enclosure for my new familiars, which is simple to say, but involved an awful lot of weeding and sugar cane mulching.)
But anyhow...I'm back.
Great that you are back Timothy, I feared for a moment that you had entered final twilight. 
[/dignitas]
Yay! 
[dignitas/]
RL > RP, welcome back to the unreal world!
"mulching sugar cane" - not a phrase I've heard before, I must admit.
OOC? Nope.
I can think of a couple of IC one's that V might raise, but those should be obvious. 
It's the new thing in Australia. My state government gives me back half the cost of my garden mulch (or rainwater tank, or swimming pool cover, or low-flow shower head) and my parents, who run a nursery and landscaping business, are visiting next week...so, it was time to get the garden in shape and mulch it. We use sugar cane tops as mulch because they are cheap, are better for our soil type than anything resinous, and smell kind of like toffee when wet.
Next plan: enormous cat cage for my new familiars. Seriously, I've gone nuts. I've ordered a complete enclosure cat pen about 12 meters by 4 meters by 3 meters, for a couple of kittens I don't even own yet. What if they take one look at my yard and say "It's too dirty...I'm not walking on that."
Still, who am I kidding? They'll be out there hoping for incautious geckos, like every other cat in the world.
Back from Korea!
Welcome back. And how did you find the land of kimchee and soju delights? Spent about a year and a half there myself a while back.
The kimchi there is much better than the kimchi here. And soju.... grin is a great social lubricant there.
Skies are grey with smog. Ate too much food on expense account. I like the place, but Seoul is not what I'd call a pretty city.
Ping.
Ping
TF,
I've always assumed that an Aegis doesn't need to penetrate... perhaps incorrectly as indicated by the current debate in the main forum. What is the ruling for this game in regards to Aegis/Wards? ( Not seeking debate, just to know how things will be working. )
Wards need to penetrate, except the Aegis, which doesn't need to, because its a breakthrough thing in a class of its own that's not a ward in the conventional sense.