OOC Discussion

I think so, assuming you're using Detailed Character Generation rather than just taking 30 xp per year.

Yes I am using the rules at the top of the Base Camp main page.

I did have a suspicion - there is still the "commission specifically for her" option, although that's likely to be expensive. It's a level 55 enchantment, which means 6 pawns of vis for the effect. However, it's also probably going to need to be an Invested Item, which as standard would require another 6 pawns to open it.

Assuming a competent Verditius, they can probably bring the opening cost down to 1 pawn (Craft 5 seems pretty likely), which brings the total base cost to 7 pawns. With Verditius pricing (and assuming it's based on final cost rather than the cost without the opening reduction), that's then a charge to Viola of 21 pawns.

An alternative approach would be to construct/purchase a lesser Intellego or Vim device which would still give some bonus.

After going over and over this problem, that's my personal reaction: the rule was poorly thought-out, and, given the rarity of opening apprentices in actual play, probably didn't come up much (if ever) during playtesting.

On the other hand, there's absolutely merit in applying the discipline of sticking to the rules as written, rather than altering them every time a PC runs into trouble--and some people just like to stick to the RAW as a matter of preference. We need to respect that.

On the third hand...this is getting out of hand, and we've moved to the point where the game activity in question is not causing anyone to have fun. I'm going to propose we lower the minimum target for Major Supernatural Virtues from 30 to 20. While the change is quite significant, there's no change to the mechanics. The required lab total of 40 is hardly trivial for a maga who's not a specialist in In or Vi (even with Inventive Genius, Viola is going to have to spend a couple of seasons studying in order to manage it alone), which prevents the most callow magi--even generalists with 5's in all Arts who would otherwise be capable of opening apprentices--from tackling such a challenging opening. It also leaves a special role for the InVi specialists, who might be needed to open apprentices with Supernatural Ability scores greater than 4.

Opinions?

Scott

Fine by me.

Yep ok. Could go further.

I'm for any ruling that makes this easier and settles the issue for good: So, yes, yes, yes!

OK, new character Athelston Ex Flambau is posted in the character development section ready for checking/editing/rejecting/burning at the stake as appropriate :smiley:

Alright - not my personal preference, but given other people's feelings let's go for it.

It'll probably be tomorrow before I look at him, I'm afraid. The Ward Against Heat and Flames is probably going to cause problems with the last option, though.

I understand, and I appreciate the compromise.

What do you want to do about when Inventive Genius should be applied?

Scott

Apologies - realised I hadn't got back to you on this. Thinking about it (and rereading old forum threads), let's limit it to when you're actually "inventing" something new, roughly (but not quite always) equating to situations where don't have a lab text but do generate one. In more detail:

  • Enchanted items: Yes
  • Spells: Yes
  • Creating or reforging a Familiar bond: No
  • Enchanting an effect into a familiar bond: Yes
  • Distilling vis: No
  • Opening the Arts: No
  • Longevity ritual: Yes
  • Training magical creatures: No

Training magical creatures is an example of the rough equation not always working, as that does generate a lab text, but I don't think it really works as an "Inventive" thing.

For what it's worth, the familiar bond also creates a lab text.

Scott

Could you give me a reference for that? I agree that enchanting powers into the bond gives (fairly useless) lab texts, but I can't see that forging the bond itself does.

Ah, my mistake.

But how do we handle experimentation? Is it a possibility in cases where IG wouldn't normally apply?

Scott

Hmm. Good question. I think I'm inclined to say let's allow it, at the full +6, on the basis that in those cases you're going beyond the boundaries of standard Hermetic theory, so being inventive is actually useful. Plus it seems to accord with the exact letter of the Virtue.

I will note, however, that a lot of the the times it's possible to experiment but Inventive Genius doesn't apply, having the experimentation go wrong is likely to be really bad. (I always rather liked the bit in the book "A magus would have to be insane to enchant his familiar by experimentation...Still, some magi are insane. Experimenting on this activity adds to the Lab Total as normal".)

I'm still not comfortable with having things to which IG applies only when you experiment. Any other opinions before we nail this down?

Scott

Only applying to experimental work is crazy restrictive. I’ve already said - it should apply when the magus generates a lab total and is not working from somebody else’s lab text.

I think you may be misunderstanding what's being proposed. I'm not saying that you only get any bonus when you experiment - I agree that's way more harsh than any reasonable reading of the relevant virtue. What I'm saying is that you get the +6 bonus for experimentation any time you experiment, rather than just the times when the base activity would be due the standard +3.

I agree it does seem a little odd, although I think it can be justified - I'm happy to say that people only get the +6 if they would get the +3 if people would prefer (but I thought they would prefer the more generous interpretation).

I think it should be the +6, and I think I get it now.