The course is also open to all covenfolk, and anyone else who wants to take it from the nearby village. Ideally it would be located in the village. At the very least there should be plenty of covenfolk.
[tab][/tab] I think you are missing the point of that phrase Ioke. Lets take some examples: a) Theology is taught, not trained. Crafts are trained, not taught. Lores are taught under this example b) Artes Liberales can be taught or trained. Single weapon (and all weapon skills) can be practiced, trained. Under these rules they can also be taught (but that would be kinda silly I think). c) Awareness, Charm, Etiquette, Folk ken, Concentration etc can only be taught, not trained under these rules
Basically take each skill and see if it can be used as a living skill. If it can (like crafts) it can be trained. If not, it can't. Makes my life simpler.
No idea, ask Ignes?
Again.... Priests, monks, ordained people are those who take Church Greek as a specialty, those who write in that language. No one else does, but they can read it at -1 for Romaic and Classical Greek. Giorgios had clerical education. Take a specialty (Church Greek) in either Classical or Romaic and he will be fine. I don;t understand where the confusion lies 
Closest village is probably Papigo, 45 mins away, population less than 50 souls. Almost all would have to work for a living, which leaves mostly small children. Its weird they would allow a total stranger commandeer their plaza to teach kids (this is medieval countryside). Work on them, get connections, talk to the elders and we will see.
The Covenant does have indoor space for classes. Most covenfolk would work, so kids again will be your audience and some people who might have time. I was counting PC characters there. Still not a large lecture...
I missed what the question was originally, and could not find it. What does this pertain to, Maia and her MT?
I will attempt to give more context, though I do not know if it will be useful.
•Gave her MT, as it seems natural to know a bit about it, being around Hermetic Magi more than the average person, and having being given Redcap training.
•I put that MT specialty automatically, without realizing it might be useless in this Saga. If aid in the Lab requires a special virtue (the Gift or Failed Apprentice or being a Familiar, for example), then I will change it, she's not yet final. If she were able to commission an LR, could she aid in its creation, having some MT knowledge?
On to a related question, is the specialty: setting up a Lab of use in this saga? Has the question of whether non-Gifted persons with MT 3 (or MT 2: specialty Setting up Labs) been settled? This would make her more valuable to the eyes of the Covenant
Maybe I'll change the specialty then. I think I'll just go for Artes Liberales?
I think you miss the ambiguity. We can go through all the skills, and we will probably only agree on half of them.
The parish priest earns his living using mainly theology and church lore, and these two skills are essential for his living. By RAW they can be trained, even though in the real world, they might not be.
Crafts, in the modern world, are usually taught, while historically they were normally trained. Clearly both are possible, both under RAW and RL.
I agree that it is hard to come up with a case for making a living from area lore, and equally hard to see how one would train in practice. I have no idea how you make a living from Artes Liberales, though.
Weapon skills are interesting, because we say that they are trained, but in fact, the trainer is normally a skilled teacher. It is very rare to actually learn weapon skills from a master as he is actually making a living from the skill himself. Field training with weapons would probably count as adventure xp in RAW. No doubt, a student will learn faster from a skilled teacher in RL, so why cannot martial abilities by taught?
Training Charm and Folk Ken might feel wrong, but the conman actually does use essentially those two skills to make his living. By RAW he can then train them. Come to think of it, I cannot see how it would be taught either. Same for awareness, how do you teach awareness?
The Verditius who makes items for sale, clearly uses Magic Theory for a living, and by RAW, he can then train Magic Theory. I have no idea how it works in RL, but it makes sense, because much of the MT is how to use the lab equipment, mix and prepare ingredients, etc. Now, we could of course say that MT is trainable only when a magus enchants an item for sale, and not if he enchants the same item for his own pleasure, but that would be silly.
And, in the case at hand, setting up shared labs will be the magi's service to the covenant and earn their place and living therein. Magic Theory, thus becomes de facto a living skill for a magus in this setting. Going by RAW it is trainable. It makes sense to say that Magic Theory is not trainable, if we view it as a purely theoretical skill, but you cannot read that out of RAW. It takes a house rule.
ArM3-4 had a clear distinction between skills, talents, and knowledges, which were learnt in different ways. ArM5 has removed it, and I am pretty sure this is deliberate. The classification always was ambiguous, with many cases hard to explain.
What you suggest is a judgement call for each individual skill. We will not, in general, make the same judgement, so we will have this discussion again every time we consider teaching or training a skill. I honestly cannot predict how you will judge a particular skill in advance. Does that make your life easier?
BTW. Are you also suggesting to limit teachable skills? Or skills that can be learnt from books? RAW ostentatiously does not limit it.
(EDIT) In fact, the book is even clearer than I could remember
By RAW, we can have books on awareness, single weapon, craft: blacksmith, animal handling, and profession: scribe. Is it harder to teach, than to write a book and learn from it?
The confusion comes from piecing together a few examples and a few partial rules from different books, and probably mixed up with fan and house rules. I shall invariably miss some key point. + the fact that the concepts of «distinct languages» and «dialects» are not well-defined in RL. If they are in game terms, I just have not seen it.
Romaic Greek 5 speciality Church Greek is sufficient then? Score 6 only helps with Classic Greek? If the answer is yes, then I have finally understood it.
I think that RAW is pretty clear that you need both MT and either the Gift or Failed Apprentice to help in the lab, so the speciality sounded useless. I find the rules rather ambiguous though, so I would not rule out the possibility that I have missed something.
The question just popped up by the bye making a context argument for the use of ungifted lab refurbishers.
You do have a point about books, I always filed them under a different standard, like practice. Look if this is a problem we can just go and use training for every skill. What do people think?
Sufficient for what? What are you trying to have the character do? Romaic/Classical Greek 5 = you can read Church documents. Romaic/Classical 6 = you can read Classical/Romaic documents. Romaic/Classical 6 does not allow you to write in church nor classical/romaic (theoretical you can with 7. However I never seen anyone have a language of over 7, not sure if rules allow it. Also no idea about puissant language). Getting Romaic/Classical with a specialty of Church Language allows you to write 4+, but only those affiliated with the church get this specialty.
Yes, AM5 pg 103 states that only gifted help can contribute to lab work (it also mentions familiars further along, but cant find any specifics about them helping in that part). Somehow this issue about ungifted grogs setting up labs became a fad....
FYI. I did a search to find this thread: Training as a Magi
It seems that both opinions exist ...
Sufficient for what?
[/quote]
Sufficient to write a book in Church Greek.
Abilities are unbounded, and in Cov you can buy a summa on Latin in Greek (or vice versa) at level 8. Somebody must have had 16 in the language to write that.
OK. So now you are saying that by raising Romaic Greek to 7, I can write Classical Greek, just when we had agree that I could not!? But not Church Greek, cannot be written without the speciality, not even with Romaic Greek 16!?
Originally, I wanted to be able to read all flavours of Greek, and at some point learn enough to write all flavours too.
Therefore I started with Romaic Greek 6. It takes less effort to get to 7 in one language, than to get to 5 in two.
That was in line with how I understood the rules at the time. I did not think of the need to teach Classical Greek,
which would of course be very valuable to the covenant.
If I can write Classic with Romaic 7, but not teach Classic, then I get confused again. Writing it, surely one needs to know the details of vocabulary and grammar in far more detail than you need to teach the basics.
Now, I am quite happy to accept what I cannot do, I just want to know what I can do, and what I can learn to do within reasonable time. If Classical and Romaic Greek are totally unrelated when it comes to writing and teaching, it is fine, I can give those up. Nobody can do everything, and Georgios is quite versatile already. If they are related, I may very well invest the time to raise Romaic Greek to 7 or 8 in order to write (or even translate) Classical Greek. I just want to know.
Of course. It is not obvious, and rather counter-intuitive, that an ungifted grog can build labs. And building labs is bloody time consuming if you want a few special features. Once you discover that the rules actually allow ungifted grogs to do it, the benefit is huge. Same goes for ungifted scribes to copy arcane books. And of course, when there is a dispute over every aspect of learning, teaching, and using Magic Theory, it becomes a fad in every possible way.
Again, read what I wrote.
and tSE pg 29 middle column, second paragraph near the center. ''To write books in Classical Greek requires fluency in that language (a score of 5 ,ArMa5, pg 165) rather than Romaic Greek, so magi often learn both languages''. It is clear that a score of 7 in a living language does not allow you to write in a dead language. I believe this was meant as a stop gap for people getting native language of Greek or Italian and bypassing C.Greek and Latin requirements.
Again. Romaic Greek 5 you can read Church Greek. Romaic Greek 6 you can read Classical Greek. No amount of score in Romaic can you write Church of C.Greek. IF you have a church education and IF your specialty is Church Greek, you CAN write Church Greek at Romaic Greek 5. Ok?
..but thats just it! the rules dont say specifically that. Its a loophole saying , yes you need to be gifted to help with research, but setting up a lab isnt research. Look the whole idea would be ok IF you spend 2-3 seasons teaching the grog MT. But the whole argument is that IF he can make labs after having the ability, why not learn it by a book? Pass 10 grogs to someone who teaches them Latin for three seasons, give them books for three seasons, and you have a company of lab making grogs. Why on earth would someone allow that?
Interesting, first time I hear of this. Page please?
I read that, and I thought that point was settled, and then you wrote
What on Earth did you mean by that parenthesis? Only meaning I can see is contradicting the previous quote. That was the only reason I asked again.
Every covenant who is serious about library curation and book production sure does exactly that. They need a small horde of scribes, and they need to train them in the relevant languages, writing and Magic Theory. If sound tractatus are easily available for 2p a piece as Cov suggests, it is almost certainly mundane scribes copying them.
Now, I am rather queazy about Magic Theory being available without the Gift; it would make sense to restrict it to Gifted people.
The book is rather explicit about it being available, and that opens up a number of surprising possibilities to boost covenant development: Lab construction, book copying, authoring tractatus. It is not just a loophole, it is such a massive collection of loopholes that they cannot be accidental.
When it comes to how the grogs learn MT, it all depends on who's available and whay they already know. Starting with illiterate grogs, book learning is at least 55xp to learn to read Latin, which is probably four seasons + 2-3 seasons reading MT. Other methods are faster. You work with the resources you have. A small scale operation for a startup is different from a long-term, high-volume operation.
The general rule that allows ability summæ up to level 8 (it is core book too p 71). Same level limit for any ability.
I think most skills can probably be trained. As long as the trainer can be reasonably said to be using the skill regularly. A king might be able to train someone in Charm, or Etiquette or Leadership depending on how he rules (for example).
Not everything modeled as a summae is written by a single individual. The bible is one such example. There are others though. So I don't think it implies that.
I don't see how its counter intuitive. The book explicitly says unGifted people can learn magic theory. It seems especially weird that they wouldn't be able to copy books. Though for actually refining labs the "rule of thumb" is you need to work in the lab for years equal to the refinement score before increasing the refinement score. Its also unclear how you go about designing a lab for transient use.
If you have access to a tutor you can just skip the part where you teach the Grogs Latin and just go straight for magic theory.
To Ioke's post:
It means that I only found 'rules' about Romaic Greek not allowed to be used to write Classical Greek. Theoretically someone with a large score of Low German can write in English. Its such a minor thing though, I suppose no-one would mind. People mind for Latin (and in this case Greek). I don't like the language rules in AM, and I do have alternatives, but its not my job to do this here 
Hmmm... could you name one, in a published book, besides Durenmar? Cause I have a suspicion these covenants are made by PCs. (EDIT: Btw the only reference I found was in Covenants pg 90. It suggests that 'those' kinds of covenants may use scribes that have both MT and ML or other appropriate lore. Take a look and give me your thoughts?)
Again, I respectfully disagree in one point. I find mentions of scribes needing MT for copying stuff. I cannot find in RAW anywhere mentioning non gifted people setting up labs. Its not prohibited mind you, but its not suggested or infered either from what I read. Please find an example and post page?
Hold on.
You named speficialy Latin in Greek at lvl 8 at Covenants. I asked for which page in covenants you found that example, not the generic rule.
I have been leafing through my modest collection of published books. I have found not a single character with a language, dead or living above 6. I 'think' I saw one person with a 6, everyone else had 5 and below. And trust me some characters had freakishly large abilities (15s and 20s)
EDIT: I am sorry, I sound contrary. Its not that. I just want things to be fair for every player. I apologize if this comes as a bit hostile, its not.
To Cat's post:
As people have a problem with this, I am willing to allow all skills to be trained (as mentioned). Bear in mind, RAW specifically states a) skill must be used to make a living in that season, b) master and apprentice do not need to have a common language (inferring skills that need a language cannot use this method, with exceptions like singing or artes liberales). I think people tend to confuse training with practising, and get anxious for characters with negative Com... plus they like not missing a season to teach.
There are special Sumae, correct. I will use some in this campaign, but I wont allow PCs to make their own.
As I stated above, the RAW states both ungifted can be taught and they need it for copying. The problem is making labs.
Thats exactly what I said . You can make a group of grogs versed in MT, who go one to teach a hoard of other grogs. This could be an MT grog invasion
Fine. Then that issue is finally settled. Thank you for your patience.
There is that mention in the inset on page 90, yes. Then there is the description in Cov of how magi make books, using notaries and scribes, and never actually scribing the book themselves. Then there is the fact that Cov describes a flourishing book trade which implies an abundance of books which cannot possible be created by magi alone.
You are a right that I have not seen any detailed covenant which does specialises in book production, but then I have not read many covenant descriptions in full either.
I never said I found explicit examples. However, when the book carefully specifies the requirement (MT 3+) I assume that it is the full requirement. In general, this assumption is the only one playable, because if we add restrictions, we need to discuss each individual requirement to reach a common understanding. The point of the rules is that we can all read them, and we have a fairly good common understanding of what the magi can and cannot do.
I do not have a problem with a house rule on this. I think it is playable and consistent whatever rule we decide on. It is just that such additional restrictions have to be written down as house rules.
The rules do not make a special case out of language, so I have to assume that the rules are the same as for other abilities. Since the book explicitly allows books in any ability, and these books can be bought for bp up to level 8, and no special case is made out of languages, I have to assume that a Latin book on Greek 8/11 is allowed. Cat's point that a summa may be an anthology or other multi-authored book is well made though; I forgot about that. It might not be useful to have language scores of 16, but there really is no reason to forbid it either.
Np. I think it is I who should be sorry. But as you, I just want to arrive at a common understanding.
Indeed. Training is the more affordable alternative to teaching. Very common in most trades throughout history.
I fail to see the material difference between labs and books in this context.
Well, that only happens if the covenant needs it. Grogs cannot afford to study MT for their own amusement. They need to earn their living.
Anyway, Thanks for the ruling on training. I think you can just go on and pin down rulings on the other issues as well. It think it is going to be playable and consistent either way. Once there is a posting in the House Rule thread, the matter is closed.
So I think the general feeling of Loke and IonianD is:
a) Grogs/Companions can learn magic theory
b) They can use magic theory to copy books
c) But we shouldn't let them set up labs or things get weird
I also propose another "house rule"
d) For translating Magic Theory replaces Area Lore. That is, Magic Theory of 3 is required for translating Art and Magic Theory books without losing quality.
So let's say that lab set up, much like fixing arcane connections or transferring vis is a minor application of the Gift.
I would like Aristocles to attend "of Things Left Buried too Long" adventure in Autumn 1215 please.
(ST EDIT) I have Aristoles: Spring Artes Liberales class, Summer Wandering Isle adventure, Autumn Latin lesson or set lab. What do you want to change? Or just add going to adventure in autumn too?
[tab][/tab][tab][/tab]Small Update
[tab][/tab]I will be adding the adventures tomorrow. Solon has some stuff going on, he will probably enter the campaign later, saving him a spot.
[tab][/tab]John? I still need to know what Aristocles is changing on his Schedule (see post above). I also need darkwing's Alexio schedule. I would appreciate if everyone rechecks the scheduler for any mistakes, thank you.
[tab][/tab] Lab spaces are a bit confusing. Tell you what. Lets have floors -1, 0, 1, 2. Then I'll designated lab spaces going from the East and counter clockwise (α, β, γ, δ). I will add the codes on the rotunda description, so can just pick and choose.
The council should really get sir Georgios to set up and train a turb. Either the spring or the autumn should logically be spent on teaching martial abilities, or something else which is immediately useful to the covenant. What is listed in the schedule is what he would do if nobody asks him to do anything in particular. Somebody else should bring that up IC. FYI.
It does not make sense, I think, for Raven to study Latin. She would want Greek, no?
In the council meeting, Arni asked for 2gamma or 2delta. He prefers 2gamma, but I am sure there will be fierce competition for that.
Alexios will need to fit in two seasons of work. Will he be working as a specialist soldier (gaining exposure in awareness or profession: naffatun) guarding the covenant, or will he be working in some alchemy based profession?
Anyway, I propose Spring and Summer spent working, and Autumn he joins the caves adventure.
(ST EDIT) I'll put him down for two exposures then. Autumn I'll put him down for overseeing a building and the second adventure
Can you explain briefly what a naffatun is? Or maybe introduce him IC? If you do, it will be easier to bring the question up in the council meeting, and the council needs to decide on what needs doing.
It seems that Alexios is a good warrior, but he cannot usefully teach warriors, and thus his martial abilities are not very useful in down-time. The most valuable down-time contribution, I believe, would be cost-reduction for lab upkeep. That's boring for a companion of course, but will be worth a lot in silver when we get expensive labs up and running.proper. One may argue that serving the covenant on two adventures in a year, is enough to earn ones place as a warrior, and the rest of the time can be spent in full freedom.
Raven still wants to get Latin 5 for more fluent communication, although if it was just her, she would prefer Greek.
Raven is willing to use set up in any lab, except the low ceiling ones.
She would prefer: 1β, 1δ or 2δ as these allow for standard Hermetic Labs and allow her equipment to be set up as a guest lab.
She would also be willing to set up in 2β. She would configure 2β to take advantage of her small frame. This wouldn't make a guest lab as is required, but if everyone else is fighting over the larger labs she could use this one.
She could set up in 2γ or 1γ, but that would be a waste. Someone who is willing to expend extra effort to take advantage of the extra space would be a better choice.