OOC: PrePlay discussion

You forgot to divide by the 10 charged items (with one charge each) he makes in one season (at least starting with the second season, when he has a Lab Text)/

Are we going to make multiple casting like quick and precise (is there another one, I can't recall and am too lazy to look it up) where it relies on the number of times taken, rather on the overall ability score?

Multiple casting can be extremely overpowered when based on the ability score, and Anemone, as she is now, DEO (Dragon and Demon) and FEO level 10 mastered for multiple casting once as her free mastery ability with Flawless Magic, so she can cast two spells per round, as it is. These spells will also see a lot of mastery capabilities added to them over the life of the character, so seeing an ability score of 4-6 isn't unlikely for some of them.
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That particular spell is incredibly problematic. First, is that it has been adjusted to level 50 in the Errata. Second is that it has casting requisites of all the forms for almost all labs. Third is it has a ridiculously high Perception EF to beat.

The level of the spell being 50th level suggests that the person learning the spell has a ReTe lab total of at least 51. While this isn't all that high, especially for a specialist or someone with a focus, this falls apart when the requisites for casting the spell get included.

The casting requisites necessary could be all of the forms, depending on what the lab has in it. But, it's reasonable to estimate at least 6 forms as requisites, which could push the ritual into the realm of being unable to cast. It could be less, or it could be all of them, depending on the lab. The more requisites involved the more likely that the spell becomes impossible to cast. The only mitigating factor to this issue might be that the caster has pretty high Artes Liberales and/or Philosophiae scores. Working backwards, the character needs a casting total of 40. Giving the character a mastery ability in ceremonial casting for the spell (5 xp) a 5 in AL (75 xp) and Philo (75 xp) pushes it down to 30, a Sta of 2 makes it 28, an average die roll of 6 makes the combined TeFo total 22, which isn't impossible, but suggests an extremely powerful magus when considering the requisites necessary.

Finally, the finesse. As a Bonisagus, you're likely to have a pretty high MT score for refining your lab. Let's say you refine it to a score of 3. That pushes the EF for moving your lab to 18 vs Per +Finesse. So on top of that magus being powerful in Arts, he needs to have a high Per + Finesse total, to move the lab without problems most of the time. An average die roll of 6 suggests that the Per + Finesse total of 12 is necessary. Maybe the spell is mastered for Precise casting a couple of times (25 xp), and drops Per + Finesse down to a total of 10. 10 is still a high number, and with all the other logistics necessary for the character, it makes the character that exists to cast the spell that much more rare, and therefore more expensive. Assume 140 xp for a Finesse score of 8 and a Perception Characteristic score of 2.

I've given this particular spell a lot of thought, as you can see. Learning the spell isn't the hard part. Being able to cast it reliably is. So with a TeFo comobo of 22, for 8 Arts (1 technique, 1 Form, and 6 requisites) you get a total of 528 xp, adding on 75 xp for AL and 75 XP for Philo and 30 xp for the mastery abilities and Finesse score of 8 adds 180 xp for a total of 888 xp. All that assumes 22.2 years of just getting to that point, when using 40 xp per year for experience as done here. Of course, I'm not assuming any Affinities with or Puissant Arts and Abilities involved, which will make it cheaper. But those virtue choices have a cost, too, and mean the character does something very well, and it goes back to the rarity and the expense associated with being able to cast the spell.

@Halancar, 3 pawns is probably too little, unless he can also ReCo himself to wherever he needs to be, so as to not waste his time. Of course, if he can do that, he is probably in high demand, and would be even more expensive.

You are doing it wrong ! Instead of taking 11 in 8 Arts, just take 22 in Rego, for 253 xp. Or 190 xp with Puissant Rego, or 169 with Affinity with Rego, and 126 xp with both. Or you can take Rego 20 (210 xp) and 2 in the seven Forms (21 xp) for 231 xp. Then you can even reduce your AL and Philosohipae scores a bit and raise Rego, it's more cost effective. In short, a Rego specialist can do it easily enough. And as a bonus he can learn that ReCo spell to travel around the world in an instant.
You are right about the Perception + Finesse roll however, that one will be a bother. Still as long as the roll doesn't botch the worst that happens is that the lab becomes Disorganized, still better than starting from scratch.

Alternatively, instead of improving the lab itself you can design magic items that help (see Magic Items for Laboratories). When you move you only need to pack up the items and bring them to the new lab, and you get the benefits.

Yeah, I really don't heavily optimize the build, I went for someone who was a bit of a generalist. I think players have a tendency to emphasize Techniques, but characters probably would emphasize forms, especially for the implicit magic resistance that they provide.

Packing up the lab in one season and two seasons of restoring it might be a reasonable alternative, along with the bp expended to pay for the 2 years of maintenance. The benefit is at the end of two seasons, the lab is up and running with all the refinement, virtues and flaws it had in the other location.

I will disagree with the the time on White Swan. It says

That is quite clear. It takes 1 season per new shape and material bonus. Seven seasons plus 1 for initiation. The Mystragogue will not initiate anyone to Green Kings without completing the seven shape and material bonuses.

Per RAW it is 1 per level of mastery. Each must be rolled for with a -1 per target from any targeting rolls. I've never seen it any other way and I agree it is overpowering. Any suggestions?

Regarding the time on the White Swan, the Green King is the third degree, and it is the degree referred to as 'the next one' here. The initiation of the White Swan takes place before that research into new Bonuses (which isn't even possible before the initiation, since it required the Vulgar Alchemy virtue that is precisely the one the White Swan is initiated into).

Regarding Multiple Casting, I unfortunately don't have any real solution to the problem. Possibly limiting it to casting on different targets, which at least will prevent someone from targeting an enemy with high magic defense with all the castings hoping for one good roll to get through. As for multiple targets, well, it's not like Group target spells are hard to design...

Simply that multiple casting be treated more like precise and quick casting, where the number of times the ability is taken determines the "bonus." In the case of multiple casting, to cast two additional copies of a spell in addition to the first instance would require taking multiple casting 2 times.

You miss one important point they always talk in this texts of the Green Kings initations about the next step not the one it is writen under.
As mentioned I have talked with CJ one of the book Autors about this.
Edit: So under The Withe Swan you read the Initation for The Green Kings, under The Green Kings is the Initation for The Peacocks and so on.

So under the seventh degree we read what? Nothing says next step and it does not make much sense. You must complete the Toads ( 1st degree) before being initiated into the 2nd degree. You must complete the second degree before being initiated into the third degree. Nothing I have read or seen has changed that. All the text in the book seems quite clear on that.

What I am saying is the time portion/sacrifice of the White Swan script is seven seasons. The person has met the requirements ( Cult Lore 3 plus Toad) is initiated into Vulger Alchemy (1 season). They then spend seven seasons making new Material and Form bonuses. After that point they could move on to Green King but not before. You must complete the Green King before being initiated into the 4th degree (The Peacocks)

If you wish to move on in the Green Cockerel, you play by their rules. You can not skip over one. I would take off a season in the Green King if the person has unaging already. Then 1 season per personality flaws they wish to remove/change.

Now are they the only way to get the Lesser and Greater Elixirs? No. They just happen to be the easiest you know of now.

@jebrik here my conversation with CJ

CJ answear

Me

His answear

As you only get Vulgar Alchemy with the white swan initation it can only talk about the next initaion.
If this is not clear enough then it can't be helped!

He only repeats what I am saying. You get initiated into White Swan ( Vulgar Alchemy) 1 season. Before you move on to Green King you must make 7 new Form and Material bonuses. That takes 7 seasons as per the Vulgar Alchemy rules. After those 7 new F&M bonuses are made and your cult lore is high enough, you can get initiated into the Green Kings ( unaging). Then you meditate/do-something to remove your personality flaws. When that is done you can be initiated into The Peacocks ( where it looks like you just need to wear colorful clothing and get Hermatic Alchemy).

Fine then we agree on how the first 3 initations have to be done? :slight_smile:

Erm, where are you getting the 7 seasons for the 7 new shape and material bonuses? If creating a one enchantment with a specific ingredient fulfills one of the seven tasks the whole process can be done in a single season if you get lucky, but it will probably take 3ish. So if discovering that fox hair can be used to give a +1 bonus when making a staff of firebolts (or whatever) fulfills one of the seven requirements, by the simple process of testing multiple items you get several out of the way each season.

However, if you need to get the full discovery, (discovering that fox hair gives a +1 bonus to shooting fire), you need to spend at least 6 seasons, but probably more. So, where are you getting the 7 seasons from?

I'm extrapolated from the Bonuses section (pg35 Mysteries). The Experiment gets you personal bonuses. You need to refine them to they can be used by others...which is the entire point of the exercise for the Green Cockerel. If we RP it out each one could take a longer time ( as you pointed out). 1 per season seems fine.

Thanks that what I already expected that you use the 7 saisons to make it more simple and without needed dice rolls.

Anyway what living condition mod. should we take for the Aging rolls?
And can someone point me to a dice server with lasting links to the roll resoult?

my signature has a link to InvisibleCastle.

1d10=6

Use healthy conditions (+2). Remember to gain 1 warping point per year once you get a LR.

What about the grogs and servants to accompany our magus? I can envision Anemone collecting and using some fighting grogs in her path of being or becoming a hoplite...

Thanks did made the 6 aging rolls for age 35-40 en block

I can't seem to register for Invisible Castle, I never receive the confirmation email...

I see you're treating Penetration the same way than Multiple Casting. It doesn't matter much to me, but it makes it quite weak (as are already the similar abilities for concentration and finesse while casting). Multiple Casting deserved it, Penetration... I'm not so sure.