Just noticed what seems to be a mistake in CrIg spell guidelines.
~"heat an object to glow red-hot" is level 5.
~"heat an object enough to melt lead" is level 10.

However, lead melts at below even 350C, while metal doesnt get "red-hot" until at the very minimal above 500C. Which is why you cant get red-hot lead.

I expect the level 10 base should be "melt metal"...

And then there´s a really dodgy one...
Level 4 ~"heat object enough to boil water"???
Eh, how MUCH water? How big an object? :smiling_imp:
Ok that one is one of those "SG decides" but its still dodgy.

Heat the object to the temperature at which water boils? As long as the duration doesn't wear off, the object won't cool down. Given sufficient duration, then, any size object could boil any quantity of water it was in contact with.

Yes, but with momentary duration?
And what size object?

Base individual for Ignam is a large campfire. So about 9 gallons of water is my WAG. As to the other point, your examples are all metals. What about coal? Or paper? An object in AM is trumped by following guidlines, yes?

Except here its about heating an item.
When blasting off Pilum of fire against a person, suddenly its the target size that matters not the amount of fire (which i think is silly)...
Otherwise it wouldnt have been a problem. Its why i called it dodgy, not specifically wrong.

My examples are metals because thats how its written, you get LESS heat from a higher base level according to RAW.
As i said, i expect it should read "hot enough to melt metal" instead of "-melt lead" because then its not a problem any more.

As to the first, if that's how you read it, each tech. has a base target size at the front of it's section, so use that. As to the second, I think you are "adding" words to the description. It does not say "red hot" lead, it says "will melt lead". So in my reading, level 5 will heat lesser objects red hot. Lead and other metals and gems are not lesser objects and are covered by the higher level guidelines. Lead and Gold will melt at level 10, iron at level 15, steel at level 20, etc. If you want to heat Lead "red hot", you'll have to use the CRC, because it's not covered by the guidelines.


Read what i said in first post again please. Thoroughly this time.
And read or at least glance through the linked material as well please.

Its COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE to get lead "red-hot".
It MELTS several hundred degrees before that in theory would happen.
Melting lead requires just a few hundred C, getting something, ANYTHING red-hot require at a very minimum 500+C.
It doesnt matter what metal, because getting ANY metal red-hot requires 500+C

Repeat once more, guidelines base level 5 as stated causes MORE heat than guideline base level 10.

I did read your post and cannon with care. Cannon does not talk about making lead red hot. Is it in the errata?

You are missing his point. Led cannot get red hot, it melts first. He is pointing out that the guidelines are out of sequence.
Level 5 - create heat of 500+ degrees
Level 10 - create heal of only 300 degrees

I get his point, I think it is based on a misreading of the guidelines. The level 5 guideline does not say 500+ degrees, it says "make an object glow red hot". As I read the guidelines, higher trumps lower. So when the level 10 guideline says "melt lead" that means the level 5 will not make lead glow "red hot", and in fact, neither will the level 10 effect (not that it claims that). The guideline to make lead glow "red hot" is not covered. Just like you can't use the level 15 creo terram to make gold. Gold is a metal, and level 15 is used to create metals, but that is trumped by the level 20 "create precious metals".

:unamused: :unamused: :unamused: :unamused: :unamused:

Thats why i told you to look at the link i provided!
To make metal glow red hot, it requires to be beyond a certain temperature. As the link says, the lowest definition of such heat is 500+C. Which means that level 5 MUST provide at minimum 500+C. Which means lead would melt fast as heck if a base level 5 spell was used on it, while a RAW level 10 spell would just be enough to melt it.
Level 10 as stated only provides 327.46 C because that is the melting temperature of lead.

I read the link. My point is that the level 5 guideline does not make metal glow "red hot" because it is trumped by the level 10 "melt lead". If you wanted to make metal glow "red hot", you are going to have to wing it, because there is no guideline to cover that.

The guidelines do not auto-correct themself by "trumping". If there is a mistake, there is a mistake. Hand waving does not make it go away...

I will look it up tonight, but I am 90% certain that DW is right.

AM5 p140, yes there damn well is, thats the point.

You are correct. The guidelines are in error. Well spotted.

If you made lead glow red-hot it would be in a molten state. Reverse the two offending guidelines.

Although the guidelines could certainly be better written, IMHO this is not necessarily an error. First thing to note is that (AFAIK) there is no measure of temperature in the 13th century. More significantly, note carefully the wording of the level 10 guideline, which says "heat an object enough to melt lead". Which objects can melt lead? The answer is a bunch of red-hot (or white-hot) coals in a furnace. So, I would interpret the level 5 guideline as being as hot as the inside of a fire (i.e. red-hot glowing coals or embers), which is not enough to melt metals, and the level 10 guideline as being as hot as the inside of a furnace, which is probably the hottest known phenomenon. However I certainly agree that there is scope for confusion!

Medevial people were not ignorant of temperature. They were master metalurgists. They knew that certain metals required increasing heat intensities, and that the temp had to be in a certain range for each step of the process. Vikings, ignorant non-Roman Vikings, used to beat iron out of the peat. They knew how hot the furnace needed to be. Any colder and nothing happens. Too hot, the container and metal is destroyed.

Yes it is. Ever play with soder? Stuff melts under your arm practically. Lead melts at that temperature, so does gold and aluminum. Know what? So does copper. At campfires, we used to jam pennies into a section of rubber tube (a chunk of garden hose). Toss it in into a fire. It melts and glows green.

Volcanoes are much hotter, and people who study such things (like magi or philosophers) are aware of that. And furnaces have varying temperatures. Some furnaces are hotter. Depends on what you are working on. The furnace of a coppersmith or a goldsmith is much cooler than a blacksmith's fire.

No its not. You can easily melt lead over a small campfire if you know what you´re doing. Guess why lead is one of the main ingredients in casting tin figures?

Except it IS enough to melt SOME metals, like lead which has very low melting point, something that was VERY well known even BC.
And ANYTHING which is "red-hot" has reached 500 or more degrees C. Thats the very reason it starts to glow, because its hot enough. You simply CANT get something red-hot that doesnt melt lead fast as heck.

Except its stated as hot enough to melt lead, which as i already said, is 327.46 C. And you CANT get red-hot metal before at minimum 500+C.

Oh yes there is.

How about ANY object reaching 327.46 C? :unamused:

All true; I was only saying that there was (AFAIK) no quantitative measure of temperature.

These metals might melt at the temperature of the hottest parts of the fire (the red-hot glowing bits), but the environment of a basic fire will not suffice for melting on any significant scale. You can't just toss a bar of copper or lead onto a campfire and melt it, AFAIK...

You mean the flame goes green, not that the metal itself glows, right? :slight_smile:

Well, they are very rare phenomena, and how would such a person go about measuring the temperature? Lava glows red-hot, so it must certainly be very hot, sure. But it's not immediately obvious that it's hotter than metal which is glowing red-hot. How would you test this hypothesis?

The medieval measure of temperature then being... ?

There aren't any degrees Celsius in medieval Europe. Or Fahrenheit. Heck, in Mythic Europe, physics works differently (e.g. trajectory of missiles, momentum). Try making an argument based on medieval knowledge and thought.