Optimization

[callen]

@Salutor

Hmmm. Whilst that's powerful, they're also going to get a light wound every time they commit a venial sin

What's that venial sin? It's a holy spell that directly brings "the character towards Holiness that is so pure as to be without spot or stain, or anything like it."

[Salutor]

They're also played by a PC, at least in theory.

[callen]

@Salutor

They're also played by a PC, at least in theory.

Ah, you mean in the future. Sure, that could happen. There are ways to try to prevent it, like Pious (Major), making it difficult for you to act in the wrong way. But ultimately, that's not relevant. I was just showing how you could create truly broken magic resistance and Soak.

[Ben_McFarland]

The exact age definitely impacts if the wizard has a Warping Score higher than 1, or if you'd need to include 10-15 Aging rolls in the character generation for years 36-[46-50].

I suppose if they got their Longevity Ritual at 44 (to avoid the rounding point at 45), they'd have a Warping score of 1 (8), if they were just 46, but then you'd have to make Aging rolls for 35-44, and would probably need to account for the cost of that Longevity Ritual somewhere in the Virtues & Flaws.

It's not a massive point, but it's one that needs to be addressed. The risk of those Aging Rolls isn't terrible at 35-44, but it's there.

If the character did generate a massive Warping score for the Resistance & Soak, presuming it was Divine Warping, they'd eventually hit the wall of Ascension and Divine Gloom/Form/Unity. At the very least, all that Warping is going to make them a beacon for "all manner of beings from the Invisible World: unMantled angels, demons, faeries, and elemental spirits. To those beings, the holy character shines like a torch in the night and draws them like bees to nectar. Their reaction to the character depends on circumstances, the character and the individual being."

That would complicate this character to an extreme point-- presuming the warping was Divine. (And I'm not missing something)

-Ben.

[Ben_McFarland]

@callen

I said I would post this, and I suppose I should before I work on any sort of optimized build for these things. Here is pure brokenness for magic resistance and Soak only a season out of gauntlet:

Virtues: Holy Magic, True Faith (make sure you're in a tradition with Divine Form), (something for the right tradition)

Spells:
Holy spell to give yourself 1 Warping Point (CrVi 5) Mastery 4 (Quiet Casting x2, Still Casting, Multiple Casting)
The same thing for 2 Warping Points (CrVi 10)

First, cast the CrVi10 spell give yourself 2 Warping Points. Now give yourself 5 Warping Points (from 5 different events in the same round, yay!) per round all day every day for the season. If you only spend 2 hours total per day doing this, you have a Warping Score of 207. That means you have magic resistance of 217 and base Soak of 43 or 44 (depends on how you round) to which you get to add Stamina and the like. Oh, you also have a paltry penetration of 212 with your divine stuff. By the rules, you could do this more than 2 hours in a day and bump those over 600 magic resistance and over 120 Soak.

I think you're conflating Faith Points with Warping Points here, and I'm pretty sure those are not the same. Divine-based Warping is not the same as True Faith, and Faith Points don't increase through something like you're describing. This doesn't work the way you're showing here; if these were Faith Points, then yes, the resistance and soak would go up, but not for Divine Warping.

-Ben.

[callen]

@Ben McFarland

The exact age definitely impacts if the wizard has a Warping Score higher than 1

Huh? What is this rule? This character could be 20 years old coming out of gauntlet. Then start casting. Are you saying you're immune to certain amounts of Warping if you're below a certain age? Maybe you missed that this is done in the first season(s) of play, not during creation?

@Ben McFarland

If the character did generate a massive Warping score for the Resistance & Soak, presuming it was Divine Warping,

I suspect you're accidentally invoking a house rule. In canon it's the tradition that determines the route, not the source of the Warping points. Certain ones always trump others, while certain ones could go one way or the other.

@Ben McFarland

they'd eventually hit the wall of Ascension and Divine Gloom/Form/Unity.

What is this wall that Divine Form has?

Yes, you'll be a beacon to all sorts of things. Of course, you have a penetration with Commanding Aura that, by a longshot, allows you to just order even demon princes away. Based on Azrael's Divine Might, you could probably order Lucifer himself away.

As was pointed out above, a much bigger issue is sinning, for which you can get huge backlash.

@Ben McFarland

I think you're conflating Faith Points with Warping Points here, and I'm pretty sure those are not the same. Divine-based Warping is not the same as True Faith, and Faith Points don't increase through something like you're describing. This doesn't work the way you're showing here; if these were Faith Points, then yes, the resistance and soak would go up, but not for Divine Warping.

Actually, you are conflating the two:

@RoP:tD p.65

The character’s Magic Resistance Score is equal to the character’s Warping Score

[callen]

Now, for more genuinely optimizing general magic resistance coming out of character creation, let's see what we can do. I say "general" because you certainly could pump a single Form and a bit of Parma Magica specialized in that Form along with the Mastery option of Magic Resistance to get a whopping magic resistance against a single spell and all similar effects. But that's not nearly so useful.

Non-magus-level:

Virtues: Guardian Angel, True Faith x2

--> 35 magic resistance

Magus-level:

Virtues: Blessing, Holy Magic, Invocation, (almost guaranteed you also want Minor Magical Focus)

Spells:

Grant yourself 55 magic resistance (ReVi 50) (Base 40, +2 Sun)

I got this up to 68 with a ritual effect, but that is level 73, requiring 15 pawns of vis and so would leave you unconscious if you powered it with Fatigue. So I figured it was better to go with this.

[darkwing]

Non-magus-level (and playable):
Bishop William FitzHerbert -

Virtues: True Faith, Temporal Influence, Powerful Relic (from RoP:D p35), Senior Clergy (From The Church)
Flaws: Pious (Major), Temperate, Low Self-Esteem, and a major Story flaw - I suggest Oath of Fealty (The Pope) as a senior churchman who has to enforce the Pope's rules, but Monastic Vows could be appropriate if your poverty, chastity and obedience are likely to be challenged in-game.

Powerful relic - Faith score of 3, so magic resistance 30. True Faith stacks for another 10. Senior Clergy allows you to be a very senior churchman, together with Temporal Influence this makes you a very powerful churchman so you can justify being a bishop, and get a commanding aura for magic resistance 10, which explicitly stacks with the magic resistance from a relic (see The Church. Therefore you have Magic Resistance 50, and while you don't have Confidence, you do get 4 faith points a day to spend and the use of a divine power from your relic.

Personality-wise, this character is a very pious character who believes everything is under God's will and his favourite phrase is Deus Vult - "God willing". He is fatalistic and convinced that everything works according to God's plan. He is not as educated as many other priests, but his strong leadership and firm devotion to the church and his faith are clear for all to see, and he has been placed in a position of authority and permitted to carry a relic wherever he goes to show God's manifest power.

Theoretically if he ever gets promoted to being a papal legate or a cardinal he gets even sillier magic resistance, and there's always the possibility of gaining more True Faith through play or questing for a legendary relic.

[callen]

Nice! I'd thought I could use a relic, but I hadn't found the right spot. Adding in a relic to mine had only gotten me to 45 magic resistance, though. Yours is better. I'd totally missed Powerful Relic. I need to adjust mine now:

Non-magus-level:

Virtues: Guardian Angel, Powerful Relic, True Faith

15 from Guardian Angel, 30 from Powerful Relic, and 10 from True Faith is 55 magic resistance

[Ben_McFarland]

I missed that point on pg65, where the warping adds to the MR, good catch.

I'm saying that if you're making a character who's 46-50, then you're going to either need to make Aging rolls for 35-[46-50], or they've got a Longevity Ritual, and if they've got a Ritual, then they're going to have additional warping based on how long they've had that Ritual (assuming they didn't make it). Just because you're creating the character doesn't mean you don't have to make Aging rolls.

But the "wall' of Ascension is going to hit when they get two or more warping points, because:

"Divine Ascension may affect any holy character ...when they gain two or more Warping Points from a single event. When this happens, the player must check to see if the character experiences the Divine Ascent, by adding any gained Warping Points to his Warping Total (and possibly adjusting his Warping Score) and then rolling:"

So when the character eventually fails that Ascension check, they're going start disappearing for days then months.

[Salutor]

@Ben McFarland

m saying that if you're making a character who's 46-50, then you're going to either need to make Aging rolls for 35-[46-50], or they've got a Longevity Ritual, and if they've got a Ritual, then they're going to have additional warping based on how long they've had that Ritual (assuming they didn't make it). Just because you're creating the character doesn't mean you don't have to make Aging rolls.

I think you might be conflating the two different characters? The character aged 46-50 has Strong Faerie Blood, so doesn't start aging until 50.

[Ben_McFarland]

@Salutor

I think you might be conflating the two different characters? The character aged 46-50 has Strong Faerie Blood, so doesn't start aging until 50.

Strong Faerie blood seems ^^^EDIT-- nevermind, totally different. Yes, unrelated.

[Adauli]

@Ben McFarland

@Salutor

I think you might be conflating the two different characters? The character aged 46-50 has Strong Faerie Blood, so doesn't start aging until 50.

Strong Faerie blood seems conflicting with the holy magic and True Faith, but yes, that'd definitely change the aging aspect.

Do you mind to tell me how Strong Faerie Blood conflict with Holy Magic? I wondering because I plan to play a hermetic magus with strong faerie blood who some years after he became Magus learned Holy Magic (actual initiated into it).

[Ben_McFarland]

@Adauli

Do you mind to tell me how Strong Faerie Blood conflict with Holy Magic? I wondering because I plan to play a hermetic magus with strong faerie blood who some years after he became Magus learned Holy Magic (actual initiated into it).

Certainly nothing explicitly mechanical-- there's a bit of implied conflicting relationship between the Divine and Faerie, that's explained a bit more on page 8 of RoP:D, and probably just the bias of sagas I've played where those two realms conflicted more than they coexisted. If your troupe is cool with this combination, go for it. It would be a source of stories for our games.

[callen]

@Ben McFarland

But the "wall' of Ascension is going to hit when they get two or more warping points, because:

"Divine Ascension may affect any holy character ...when they gain two or more Warping Points from a single event. When this happens, the player must check to see if the character experiences the Divine Ascent, by adding any gained Warping Points to his Warping Total (and possibly adjusting his Warping Score) and then rolling:"

So when the character eventually fails that Ascension check, they're going start disappearing for days then months.

Yes, though there are two things to consider.

First, this character will only make (and intentionally fail) that check once at the beginning to get it started. Then we only need Warping Points. The character only picks up one Warping Point from any single event. We've just got a way to have a great many events.

Later on, sure, the character could disappear for a while. But compare that to Twilight. Let's say you have a Warping Score of just over 200 with Divine Form. You fail your check. You're gone for about 17 years. That's only a bit over the expected roughly 13 years for a Warping Score of 9 for Twilight; they're in the same ballpark.

Also, the Divine has ways to avoid botching, more than just what is available to the Holy Mage from things like Cautious Sorcerer and a Gold Cord.

[Ben_McFarland]

@callen

First, cast the CrVi10 spell give yourself 2 Warping Points. Now give yourself 5 Warping Points (from 5 different events in the same round, yay!) per round all day every day for the season. If you only spend 2 hours total per day doing this, you have a Warping Score of 207. That means you have magic resistance of 217 and base Soak of 43 or 44 (depends on how you round) to which you get to add Stamina and the like. Oh, you also have a paltry penetration of 212 with your divine stuff. By the rules, you could do this more than 2 hours in a day and bump those over 600 magic resistance and over 120 Soak.

Personally, I wouldn't treat the multicasting as 5 different events, not based on what it's being used for. The intention there is "in a single instance," which is what is happening. shrug YMMV, but I would argue against it with my troupe.

[callen]

So, let's say I cast Wizard's Icy Grip at you, multi-cast for 5 copies, and you have nice Ignem Soak, taking no damage despite them penetrating. You would roll for Twilight as though you'd just picked up 5 Warping Points at once?

[callen]

@callen

15 from Guardian Angel, 30 from Powerful Relic, and 10 from True Faith is 55 magic resistance

Now that, with help, I've gotten to 55 magic resistance from a companion (matching my best magus), I have to wonder if I can do better with a mage? Certainly, a Mythic companion could do a lot better following the same route as this companion.

[Ben_McFarland]

@callen

So, let's say I cast Wizard's Icy Grip at you, multi-cast for 5 copies, and you have nice Ignem Soak, taking no damage despite them penetrating. You would roll for Twilight as though you'd just picked up 5 Warping Points at once?

You know, I might. The language for Twilight says "a single event," and doesn't distinguish between being hit by multiple spells at once and one spell that does 2+ points of Warping. It'd be something I'd need to discuss with the Troupe, but I have the feeling they'd lean towards it requiring a Twilight comprehension. I'll take it up with them.

[wampa]

@Ben McFarland

@callen

So, let's say I cast Wizard's Icy Grip at you, multi-cast for 5 copies, and you have nice Ignem Soak, taking no damage despite them penetrating. You would roll for Twilight as though you'd just picked up 5 Warping Points at once?

You know, I might. The language for Twilight says "a single event," and doesn't distinguish between being hit by multiple spells at once and one spell that does 2+ points of Warping. It'd be something I'd need to discuss with the Troupe, but I have the feeling they'd lean towards it requiring a Twilight comprehension. I'll take it up with them.

I'm under the impression that multi-cast spells are supposed to be resolved 'in sequence' - especially important if you're going to be on the receiving end of say, multiple Pilums of fire, you want to get to soak each one rather than simply multiplying the damage by 3. Since I'm under the impression that spells do in fact resolve this way, I'd rule the Warping gain happens one at a time, just like the damage. This is important because someone could technically be forced into Twilight (Twilight Prone? - if not by this effect, than by a CrVim one that is specifically designed to give warping points, for example) before they were on the receiving end of subsequent spells - thus allowing them to only be on the receiving end of a single Wizard's Icy Grip (and point of Warping) before heading off into Twilight.