Perdo Imaginem Question

The Perdo Imaginem guidelines all reflect the ability to destroy the species of an object, but what about destroying "free floating species"? For example could a perdo spell with a circle target, diameter duration, destroy all incoming species that carry sound for 2 minutes? In effect, ward anyone standing within the circle from any spell that uses sound to deliver it's effects, as in most voice ranges?

If you mean "could a Perdo Imaginem spell with circle target block incoming sound species ?", the answer should be yes.

If you mean "then, does this spell block incoming voice ranged spells because the caster's voice is blocked by the spell ?", my answer would be no. Period.
if you need an in-game explanation : voice is a range. Nothing implies that the magical effect is carried by the species of the caster's voice. The strength (or tone, or pitch, pardon my poor English) of the caster's voice defines a distance which is the range of the spell in every direction. If the voice could have reached the target, the spell works, Perdo Imaginem notwithstanding, because Perdo Imaginem does not block the magical effect of the spell itself but only the caster's voice. In fact, the protected persons could be target of a voice spell without hearing the magus' voice (or any other incoming sound). OTOH, this spell does protects from incoming sound effects.
If you need a meta-game explanation : if you admit that, it becomes a better protection against voice ranged spells than any Rego Vim effect and I don't like it.

BTW, if you do want to block some spells with imaginem effects, why don't you try Creo Imaginem ? Put an illusion (of anything) between you and the attacking magus and he could no longer target you (unless he has some special virtue allowing that). Of course, you could not target him either.
Or Perdo Imaginem : turn invisible and your enemy could not directly target you (but could still use zone (room, structure) effects).

Have a look at Houses of Hermes: Soc, p64 - there are two spells which demonstrate alternative destruction of species. Ambush on the Deserted Road (PeIm20, which has circle/ring), and Hiding in the Crowd (PeIm10, which shows destruction in a single direction to render something invisible).
If you are meaning the species can be destroyed then that is very plausible. However I would not agree that it therefore protects from R:Voice spell effects.

You might check R: Voice in the core book. It explicitly answers your final question when it clarifies the meaning (my underline):

Note that it's the distance, not if the sound gets there. So if the sound produced will carry 50 paces out, then that's the distance, regardless of the sound actually getting that far.

Callen, you should have also included the next sentence of the corebook in that quote, if only for fun: "However, if the caster is silenced or quieted by magic, the range is reduced." So such a spell would actually work, but exactly in the opposite way as desired, preventing R: Voice going out of that circle, but allowing spells coming inside it.

Would a ReIm which prevented the sound from reaching the target protect it then? The same way a wall would reduce the ability of a voice to penetrate?

No, not really. R: Voice could escape as well because the caster within the circle could still speak. You have to actually stop the generation of the sound, not stop the sound after it's been generated.

This is exactly where things get interesting. If species are not carrying the spell, how does that which is carrying the spell react to the elements of the world? When the caster's voice is quiet, magic realizes the caster wants a short range; where there is a wall, magic is somehow is constrained by the physical form of a boundary. Can rego magic of any other form than Vim constitute a boundary for magic itself? I should think not. In this sense a ReIm ward should not be able to reduce the distance of a voice range spell as the magic is reacting to the volume of the caster not to the volume of the sound.

The magic of voice range must originate in the vocal chords and mouth cavity of the caster, or at least somehow be connected to what is going on there. Once it gets it's marching orders, the spell is not going to be hindered by anything other than that which effects magic itself (parma, vim wards, counter spells).

I'm thinking of it somewhat like a blowgun, but using vocalizations instead of a puff. Once the dart leaves the blowgun, the user's puff of air no longer matters, but that puff (among other things) still determines how far the dart goes. So I'm thinking of the spell being projected by the voice rather than carried by the voice.

Does a wall reduce the range for R: Voice? Do you have a citation for that? It's a logical leap from ArM5 p.112.

A wall certainly reduces the range of sight, in that you cannot see through it. Voice works as far as the voice carries, and that does depend on the environment- depending on the composition of the wall it could either reflect or muffle the sound, but at the same time it is not an absolute barrier to sound the way it is to sight. Can PeIm or ReIm affect sight range? PeIg can by covering an area in darkness... of course I expect you could protect an area from voice range with PeAu...

This requires a logical leap based on the core rules, though. Does voice really work as far as the voice actually carries? Then why does it pass a PeIm circle around the caster that stops the voice? Consider this as well: A person is placed in a tiny, free-standing room with thick walls with cushioning. The whole little building is only a few paces across. A nearby person outside of it casts a R:Voice spell, not loud enough to be heard inside but loud enough to be heard beyond the building and on the far side of it. The person inside the building is within the distance the voice carries, so technically the person should be affected. Why do these walls not inhibit R: Voice while other similar ones do?

I'm not saying this view is specifically wrong, just that it doesn't follow logically. That's why I mention the logical leap. The whole thing is a bit messy, though, so maybe it could be viable. But you shouldn't operate on the assumption that this is accepted as correct by the canon rules.

Hi guys!

Seeing how this issue is going, should a ward against Imaginem be a cheap way to cast quiet spells?
I think that is an end result that should be avoided.

I've always considered Imaginem to affect the emitter, and not the species themselves. Since it's been some time, I forgot why I prefer this interpretation but this seems a clear case where it works better.
IMHO, if the magus cannot beat the ward penetration, he is muted and cannot cast Voice spells.

I'm not sure about all wards. Would a personal ward against humans stop you from petting a dog? So would a personal ward against sound stop you from speaking? It seems like it would more likely stop you from hearing because it would stop the incoming sounds. That's not to say you can't stop outgoing sounds with Imaginem just like invisibility spells, just that a personal ward doesn't seem right to me.

Now, from what's written in the core book, I would say a circular ward around you would essentially enable quiet spells. But it's not really the same. You'd still be speaking, just only those close enough (within the circle) would hear it. People can still see your mouth moving. You still have to lay down the circle. You have to stay within the circle to do it. Not that it works the same with R: Voice, but MuVi already allows for silent spells pretty easily if you're willing to put in the effort. It wouldn't bother me if a magus dealt with all this to manage silent R: Voice spells.

Why ? Auram is about weather phenomenons. I don't see how it could affect a character's voice, neither how it could hamper a spell with R:Voice.

You may be lured by some non-Aristotelician nonsense theory arguing the sound is a particle vibration or something like that ; which isn't actually.

Sound is made of species. There is no clue the state of Auram materials may be an obstacle to the species of voice - but they are for Sight species indeed.

You might use MuTe in order to modify the terrain and walls, etc... Then the echoes would be modified so that the sound is destroyed or boosted ; but it would require Finesse, huge range in Profession : Architect and I am not convinced it could be enough to fully disable R:Voice spells (it could add bonuses or minuses).

Indeed, but :

  • in this case, the targeted enemy magus could resist because he is the included in target of the Pe Im spell,
  • it's way more problematic to trace a circle around an enemy target than it is tracing it around your own position! (and he could walk away of the circle, if the spell uses a ring/circle target and/or duration) ... ect-sounds
so yes, weather could affect sound. Which could be observed by Dickens well before the scientific explanation, so I doubt any Aristotelian philosopher will tell you otherwise.
Though in original Aristotelian though the species explanation applied only to sight, not sound.