Permanent Creo Rituals

I thought of this spell based on something Salutor had suggested in another thread. Can someone show me why this isn't valid? I really want it to not work, but I haven't found what says it doesn't work. Or has Salutor just let me to break the game again?

Using base 15: Give a character a +18 bonus to Recovery rolls. (I would use +21, but I don't want to debate the limit that can be provided.)

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Hi,

RAW, it works.

Probably not intended. :slight_smile:

Anyway,

Ken

Hi,

Although it's not so terrible if this does work.

It might be worthwhile to cast on a magus, because every Warping Point matters. But magi who have vis for this probably have first boosted Sta and Int.

Most magi would rather Warp their grogs with a higher level, persistent recovery spell than spend the 4 pawns per grog, because Warping rarely matters with grogs. And at 4 pawns a pop, it won't be happening to all grogs.

Is there some other more worrying ritual?

Anyway,

Ken

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Sure, with this one I'd be more likely to do T: Circle and make a big circle to save a ton of vis.

This one on its own isn't so problematic. There are two things that are bugging me. First, if we extend this to all of Creo, you can do things like permanent, non-dispellable mind control. Second, if this is possible, why are there year-duration Creo rituals in canon when the same effects could be done permanently, without vis, and in a way that can't be dispelled?

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Hi,

Oops, forgot about that! :smiley:

How? We can implant an idea, but it's not ReMe.

And that idea can be forgotten, similar to the way I can CrAn a cow, which can then be killed like any other cow.

Hmm. Not all spells in canon make sense (or even obey the rules), and I'm quite sure that your recovery spell is not at all RAI.

But we might be missing something. Maybe a very close reading of the Creo rules will show that only certain effects can be made permanent.

Anyway,

Ken

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Oh, I'm much more devious than that. :smiling_imp: Creo Mentem can create personality traits. This has been demonstrated in canon. So you do a CrMe ritual to permanently implant a loyalty trait of +6ish toward you. Now that person is loyal to you at the level of a Major Personality Flaw, meaning that loyalty to you "is an aspect of the character’s personality that defines them" (ArM5 p.37). That loyalty cannot be dispelled and lasts forever.

That's exactly how I feel, which is why I made this thread. I, too, don't think this recovery spell is RAI. I hope I'm missing something. But maybe not. Anyway, more eyes can't hurt.

Hi,

What I get for not cracking a book and taking a look at what else you could do! Indeed, that should work quite nicely.

considers

Maybe we should look at this backward: What if this is the way things should be? Magi shouldn't have to sweat the small stuff. Giving a bunch of grogs a +6 loyalty trait isn't quite mind control, it is expensive enough that it won't happen often in low-powered sagas, and it's the sort of thing magi really should do if they could. It eliminates many of the lame (from a certain pov) plotlines that powerful magi ought not be concerned with anyway.

So, ok: If a magus can get a bunch of people into a circle for an hour or so, and is willing to power up the mind control lasers, he can get loyal minions and do other interesting things.

Canon has moved in a different direction, but maybe you have found a solution rather than a problem.

Anyway,

Ken

No it doesn't work. Here's the relevant quote from the limit of essential mature on page 79

A human who gets +18 to their recovery rolls is not natural. The essential nature of humans does not encompass Marvel's Wolverine.

The text which deals with creo rituals on page 112 does not contradict the limit of essential nature:

is our wolverine-ification spell a spell that creates things? No, is it a healing spell? no it's not. It's a healing spell in the same way that a spell to create a shovel is a digging spell (i.e. it's not).

So no, it can't be a instantly permanent creo ritual.

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I can't find anything against it. Certainly, the section specifically on Creo in the core book doesn't help. The Limit of Creation notes seem to say this should work

As you can see, the comments are about "all uses of Creo magic" or are completely generally to it by saying "Creo magic" without any qualification. So I guess this does work.

Mercurian Magic + Imbued with the Spirit of Mentem + Leadworker + good CrMe = making lots of stuff fanatically loyal with ease.

The core rules disagree with you here:

Perhaps beyond +18 would be outside the essential nature of humans, but not +18. It's like using Creo to get to +5 in a Characteristic but not beyond +5. Since Creo magic doesn't violate essential nature, rules about magic violating essential nature don't apply.

I did see that, that statement is in the limit of creation specifically talking about "Hermetic magic is incapable of creating anything permanently without raw vis." I think that the rules weren't written with so much rigor that we can reliably pull that sentence out of it's discussion with regard to creating things and apply it to modifying things.

A natural human can't get a +18 to recovery rolls, ergo the limit of essential nature kicks in. The statement "Creo magic does not violate the essential nature of its target" is in conflict with this, but which way are you going to go?

+18 to recovery rolls is natural?

or

David Chart is only human and he didn't carefully consider the ramifications of the precise language he used when he was trying to get across the idea that permanently creating things requires vis?

I'm trying to follow this. If we follow your reasoning, does Gift of Reason (ArM5 p.148) work? If so, this could fit. If not, something in the reasoning is off.

Humans can naturally have intelligence scores of 0 or lower, therefore the gift of reason doesn't violate essential nature, humans can't naturally get a +18 bonus to recovery rolls based just on their natural constitution, so the permanent recovery bonus does violate essential nature. This is the reason that the stat boosting creo rituals are limited to +5

The statement is not just there. Look at the description of Creo in general:

As you can see, that statement is made outside of any comments about vis as well. Changing from fastest horse and strongest man, we can say Creo can make a person heal as well as the healthiest person. Creo cannot make a person heal better than that. (Not talking about doing the reparation with Creo, just Recovery rolls.) So +18 is probably Creo's cap, though the cap could be higher.

Could well be. That doesn't concern me so much. I like to know what the rules actually say, whether I like what they say or not. That way I know when I need to house rule things if I want to change them.

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For what it's worth, I agree with Eric Tyrrell and his reading in this matter.
It was in fact almost excatly what I was going to write, but he got there first.

I'd take this statement as support for position that the spell can't work. You can only heal as fast as the fastest human. Recovery totals are defined on page 179

You can raise a creature's stamina but a raising of a creature's "magical aid" is not inherent to the fastest healing human. It violates the limit of essential nature.

The spells that bring plants to maturity in a short period of time are creo, they don't use vis, and one can hardly argue that bringing an elm to maturity in a twenty minutes (base 25 +1 touch so level 30- non ritual) is only as fast as the fastest elm tree. Creo can do things supernaturally fast, faster than is consistent with essential nature.

The recovery bonus is using magic to bring an injured human body to perfection. It isn't a property of the body much less one that can be construed as part of essential nature.

In the +18 to recovery Creo guideline, I think that the thing created is the person in a healthy state, NOT a version of the person with accelerated recovery.

The effect is already permanent, so it can't be improved with vis. In any case, that's how I would clarify the rules in my Saga

Edit:ninja'd (or Hermetic equivalent)

This makes me think of the Cult of Heroes attribute boosting rituals (HoH:TL p103)

Is there really no reason whatsoever to have these rituals at Target: Individual as they are written rather than T: Circle?

From the point of view of the magi inventing them, there's pretty much no reason whatsoever(I suppose that, during the casting, the circle could be disturbed - making screw ups more common). This also applies to healing spells, especially because the target of the healing spell is the wound rather than the person who suffered it.

I like where you've shifted with this. Arguments that the Creo guidelines violate essential nature are necessarily invalid because they are Creo guidelines and Creo guidelines can't violate essential nature. But you're absolutely right about your point of getting to essential nature. Healing instantly isn't essential nature, just a quick way of ending up at a point within essential nature. Looking at this like bringing to maturity makes a lot of sense. Most importantly, this seems to push things where I believe they are RAI. Maybe we can all agree on this?

(As a side note, since Creo can heal even faster than these Recovery roll bonuses no matter how high the bonuses, the bonuses should be able to continue forever.)

So, when we look at some of the other guidelines with this in mind, which ones can be made permanent and which ones are paths to something in essential nature instead of being essential nature? Here are some I'm thinking about, skipping spells that bring to maturity or provide a Recovery roll bonus. I'm breaking them into three groups, what I think cannot be permanent, what can be permanent, and what I'm stuck on. I'd love to hear feedback on these.

  • Cannot Be Permanent

CrAn 2 / CrCo 2 / CrHe 2: Preserve [] from decay. - I would say this holds things at a point within its essential nature, but remaining that way is not part of its essential nature, so this cannot be permanent.

CrCo 3: Prevent wounds from worsening. - I would consider this just like preventing decay above. The wounded being is being held at a point in its essential nature, but remaining there is not part of its essential nature, so this cannot be permanent.

CrHe 1: Ensure a plant grows well for the duration of the spell. - As written, it seems like when the spell ends it's over. This is like improving Recovery rolls, helping something hit a state within its essential nature, but not actually essential nature itself, so this cannot be permanent.

CrHe 1: Prevent a plant from becoming sick. - I would consider this like the CrCo3 guideline and so like preserving from decay. This cannot be permanent.

CrVi 4: Create a temporary Arcane Connection to a demon. - Well, this one says "temporary" explicitly, so I think that would suggest it can't be permanent already.

CrVi 5 / CrVi 10 / CrVi 15: Decrease the rate of decay of an Arcane Connection. - I would consider this just like preventing decay above. The Arcane Connection is being held at a point in its essential nature, but remaining there is not part of its essential nature, so this cannot be permanent.

  • Can Be Permanent

CrMe 4 / CrMe 5 / CrMe 10: Retore a memory. - This seems very much like healing. I would think this could be permanent. The memory would again start to fade naturally.

CrVi Gen: Refreshing spell traces. - This seems very much like healing. I would think this could be permanent. The spell trace would again start to fade naturally.

CrVi Gen: Restore a demon's Might Pool. - This seems like healing, too. I would think this could be permanent.

  • I'm Stuck

CrIm: Creating any image. - I know what to do with real fire, real light, etc. But I'm unsure how to treat an image. Maybe just like light so that it's silly to make it permanent but you can? My real problem is the first paragraph on Creo on page 77 and how to interpret CrIm in general in that context.

CrMe 4: Put a thought or emotion in someone's mind. - Sure, thoughts and emotions fade naturally, and there is nothing wrong with making them permanent and letting them fade. But this has also been allowed to give Personality Traits. Personality Traits don't normally fade, though they can change over time. Would this be like CrMe to gain Intelligence, for example?

CrVi 3: Taint something with magic. - You can permanently make create magic shells on things. But how do you classify tainting?