Query. Interest in a hedge magic saga?

Hello all,

People that is old in the forum or has been reading my recent post knows that I like hedge magic traditions. I like them more than hermetic magic because ,(even if totally invented in a lot of cases) to me they feel more.medievla than the hermetic system. And they tend to be less setting breaking than the all powerful hermetic mages.

So, I have had this idea floating in my mind for a long time. A hedge magic saga. I tried it at the table twice. Once in a retelling of the Davnalleus war (it was a blast, but short) and once as a more.open saga, that floundered due to group dynamics (nothing wrong with the system).

I am considering reviving this idea in the forums. Is anyone interested in a lower power saga?

Possibilities here


  1. The OoH exists. The hedgies have to deal with that without being part of it.

  2. The OoH are the hedgies. Hermetic magic does.not exist, so the order of hermes.is composed of the hedge magic traditions

  3. There is no Order at all, only hedgies.

A. All traditions allowed. This is likely to result I a hodgepodge of traditions in the group

B. At least 3 players should play the same tradition, so as to have a "core" tradition as the basis for the saga. Other traditions welcome.

I am very open to what people want to play, and would like to discuss with interested Pepe what they want from the saga, be it adventure, mundane stuff, legend exploration, high conflict or whatever.

The only thing I dislike is Major supernatural virtue granting. So it is the only thing I would prefer not to see as a common feature in the saga. It is what it irks me of the natural magicians. Besides that feel free to shot away.

For me, I like Triamore as a basis for a saga. Grounded in mundane politics and stuff as well as mystical stuff, but I can also play with high conflict sagas without much issue.


Sounds great! I love Vitkir and Hedge Witches, so I'd find those the easiest to do, but Gruagachan and Learned Magicians are fun too (but the temptation with those two is to grant virtues....so presumably you'd want us to restrain ourselves to minor virtue granting). I don't really understand Elementalists or Nightwalkers enough.

Basically I find it counterintuitive when people start to grant themselves or others shapeshifter 4 or mythic herbalism 4 when they have not touched a plant in their whole lives. Sounds... like cheating to me. You know what I mean. As long as people do not do that it is fine. And yes, I am aware that these are gruagach/nat magician staples but I still do not like them much despite loving both traditions.

There are other traditions to play around here. There is a whole listing of 50+ traditions out there. No need to limit ourselves to the HMRE book. The following list lacks a few of the latest books to compile, but you get the idea:

Witches and vitkir get one vote then. Nice


I like the concept of the OoH be composed of hedge magic practitioners. Would Mystery Cults be a thing though?

Regarding this concept, I started a thread some years ago. Not that we have to follow that, but gives a rough outline of my approach to that (pending the approval of other players).

Well, it seems that there are Mystery Cults if entrance to the Order and getting Parma Magica is by Initiation.

I'd rather have simper rules for Wizard's Communion though, along the veins of all the Mercurian Rituals like those found by Fenicil; i.e. it takes one season to learn and is like an ability.

Does this mean that Diedne's tradition is active and thus are the ones that have Spontaneous Magic?

This sounds like a fun idea. I kind of like the thought that the order could be just Parma Magica, so someone (Bonisagus?) came up with a way to make it so mages could work together, but without a universal theory of magic. Without some way to avoid the effects of the gift, though, it does become harder to make a group that would stay together at all.

Edit: A thought I had, triggered by the Diedne question above, maybe there was the canon Order once, but the schism war actually destroyed it, and hedge mages learned the secret of the Parma Magica and formed a society of mages in the absence of the order. So Hermetic Theory may be a lost secret, or perhaps one small faction of the new society.

That is a cool idea. Iv an see the diednes making a main strike against the covenants hosting bonisagi, so as to destroy the theoretical bas ROF the OoH, and using sympathetic magic to burn the libraries of the order. A true cataclysm. After that. The grinding conflict left the order with a few magi left, and the need to rebuild caused them to admit a lot (and I mean all of them) hedgies into the order of Hermes. How does that sound?

In this sense, the OoH he been a fleeting moment (250 years) of glorious magical cooperation and growth that is no more. In this sense it is like a mythical magical Camelot.

Sounds great! I'm currently torn between Vitkir and Elementalist. But decision can wait until the game gets going. (If that's happening?)

Ok. There seems to be an interest in this. Enough to try to spin something and see where it leads us :slight_smile: . Vitkir get mentioned repeatedly, along with others (witches, natural magicians, elementalists), so I think i will go for something viking-ish or borderland with Viking influence.

There is a book called King Hereafter. Author is Dorothy Dinner if anyone wants to give it a spin. It (re)tells the story of MacBeth making him then last Viking earl of the Orkneys and Caithness, following him in his rise to power (and subsequent fall). The 11th century is the swan song of the Vikings and the period is just after the schism war (Macbeth is king 1040-1057, Hastings 1066). So, if vitkir, folk witches and gruagach want to make their presence felt, it might be a good period to play around. Universities were not that common, but cathedral schools were present and in full swing, so no problem with natural magicians and other learned traditions existing as well.

Sounds like a suitable/attractive time frame? If not we can decide on something else.

Is the Oath going to remain roughly the same? In other words, will we be "allowed" to get involved with the Macbeth plotline (or other mundane politics)?

I was also thinking the schism war would be deeper in the past, so the old Order was more of a distant memory.

But despite those quibbles, I think ultimately that's an interesting story.

If you read the oath strictly, as long as you do not bring ruin on your Sodales, no problem getting involved. And if you do, well, so is life and interesting times :stuck_out_tongue:

The thing here (for me) are vitkir. Vitkir are markedly a Viking thing. Having them running around in the 13th century sounds a little bit weird. We can rewrite the history of the order to have it start in the 6th century and the schism war happening in 820 without much problem in any case. It is an alternative setting after all.

Or plan B: vitkir are one of the traditions inside verditius. Another being the Heronists of ancient magic. One is great with runes, the other tradition works with sentient automata.

Any suggestions for another setting or major plotline you want to focus on?

I was totally gonna ask if I could take the Mechanica virtue if I made an Elementalist :grin:

I just love the idea of a hedge mage game, I didn't have any particular plotline in mind.

I think the justification for late Vitkir is that they are under siege by the Christians in Scandinavia so have reason to travel, earlier on they seem closer to a powerful order of court wizards to viking warlords? Maybe I'm full of it though.

I'm gonna be quiet and let other people bring up their ideas now. :slight_smile:

Ok, settings I have a weak spot for:

  1. Loch Leglean (abyssal weather, great history)
  2. Triamore covenant (great mundane setting)
  3. Catalonia (I live here).

But I am very open to suggestions from interested people. I am very pro-troupe decision making here over having a SG decide most stuff.

I prefer low power adventures, but the ocasional powerful creature will step in the story for sure if I go for this.

Regarding the mechanical elementalist, I had not considered this mix and match of traditions, so I have no answer for you yet :slight_smile:

I didn't think of Mechanica as a full tradition, but something scholars would dig up. (And Elementalists are quite scholarly).

Having not played a Rhine game I am interested in Triamore.

As for the timeline, it is easy enough to retain the 13th Century start. The Viktir could have finally joined the Order because of their dwindling numbers. Perhaps the Order of Odin did exist in this timeline and has now broken into two groups; the Viktir and the Muspelli.

As usual my question is... Are Forest Paths/Paths of Power or Merinita Nature Mysteries a thing? If not, I'd probably go with a (Breton) variant of Gruagachan.

They can be IMO. The initiation paths are cool

I am interested in the people that want to play and what they want to play. This now important to decide the type of campaign.

Plot_device: Elementalist. Suggests taking mechanics of heron as a secondary major virtue for the character. Likes Triamore as a setting, specially around the official starting date.

MalakhGlitch. Likes forest paths. Official starting date as well.

Darkwing: witches and vitkir (gruagach and learned magicians as secondary).

I am still on vacations taking care of my daughter, so will try to work around a suitable explanation of what the Order would look like and get back to you. Basic points will be (in no particular order):

OoH composed of hedge traditions. Not all traditions are equal in power, but most are far from invulnerable, so they cannot simply bully their way around.

Parma and Aegis, and the efforts of Trianoma were the driving forces behind the cartoon of the OoH.

The schism war was truly catastrophic. A lot of traditions (including the original bonisagus researchers and their notes) were all lost. Right now Parma is only half understood, and the same with aegis. There are ways to cast both through casting tablets and the like. But they are a lost (functional) secret now.

The old OoH has legends regarding how powerful the founders are, but nobody is sure about the truthfulness of such statements. There is no unifying theory of magic, after all.

Vis and magical auras are still the 2 key resources for the OoH.

Vis transfer is quite unheard of. If you want to use the 4 pawns of Terram contained in a menhir you need to drag it to your lab or do the enchanting where the menhir stands.

The code is read strictly. If you do not bring ruin to your sodalea you can interfere as much as you want. However, it is.lilely that heavy involvement gets denounced and you get a slap in the head by the tribunal or a trigger happy hoplite. Tread with caution. Court wizards are looked with suspicion, but some make a living as such. And a lot of covenants have deals with nobles regarding healing houses, minor enchantments to improve their castles or a.minor magical sword every 50 years or stuff like that.

The Order is held together by redcaps more than anything, and the fear of conflict between magi with no restrictions. This has happened on then past and (almost) everybody agrees that conflict is ok, but huge upheavals are not.

Wizard wars and conflict is way more prevalent than in the official setting, since interference with mundanes is quite common. The order is way more integrated in mundane society and the Code is read strictly.

Book trade in the OoH is in Lores more than Arts, since the disparate traditions makes Art trade complicated.

Certamen follows a ritualised form of Acclaim. You do your magical thing, and try to show off more than your opponent. Your peers decide which one of you has done better after 3-5 rounds of magical action. So you can have a duel between a Magus using Entrancement and a magus using Tueor Fortunam. You can use the actions to impress the public or strike at your opponent (unsure about that last bit).

The exiatence of more than 3 realms is debated. Infernal, divine and Legendary realms are clearly different. The difference between magic and faerie not so much.

Covenants are sometimes.multi-tradition, but more often than not they have one (or a predominant) tradition. That makes them more self contained elements than in then official setting.

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I'm interested if we are still recruiting. Leaning more towards Learned Magician or Vitkir. Not opposed to Rhine/Triamore.

This was actually a petition to see if there was interest. It seems there is interest and it turned into a pseudo-recruitment thread.

I will work on this and come back to you in a few weeks. Setting is likely to be triamore around 1220. I need to iron out the details and reread GotF and triamore. Learned magician fits better than vitkir imo, but I am not closed to anything.