Question regarding spells increasing characteristics

[Aristide_le_Juste]

Hello there,

As the tittle says, I have a question regarding the CrCo and CrMe guidelines that increase a person characteristic and the similar spells in True Lineages "(characteristic) of the followers/heroes".

The guidelines in the core rule book are:
Lvl 35 increase to no more than +1
Lvl 40 to +2
and so on until lvl 55 to +5
While the spells in True Lineages are rituals:
Lvl 35 for an increase to a maximum of 0.
Lvl 60 for an increase to a maximum of +5.

As far as I understand, since those are guidelines they have:
Range: personal
Duration: momentary
Target: individual
And since the ones that increase a characteristic to a maximum of +4 or +5 have a minimum lvl of 50 or 55, they have to be ritual.
Is that correct?

The translation to the spells in TL is then easy. Those spell have:
Range: touch
Duration: momentary
Target: individual
So I just have to take the base lvl from the guidelines and add +5 to change the range to “touch”.
There is however few points that I don’t quite understand.

1. Why the spell lvl 35 "(characteristic) of the followers” is a ritual since its level is below 50? I guess I missed something in the rules there.
2. If I increase the duration from momentary to diameter, that is a +2 magnitude and thus a +10 lvl increases. Now let’s say that I use the guidelines for a spell lvl 35 (increase to no more than +1; personal; momentary; individual) and want to increase its duration to diameter. Its level is now 45. However, the spell is clearly less potent since it will be dispelled after 2 minutes while before, with its momentary duration, it would last forever. I guess I am wrong somewhere in my reasoning but I don’t see where.

Last question. If I wanted to use this kind of spell on my familiar, I assume there would be an Animal requisite. But would that affect the magnitude of the spell?

Thanks a lot for your help.

[rgd20 (Bob)]

They are rituals because they change things permanently, rather than having a duration, that is why they need Vis to power the transformation.

For a familiar you need to use Animal versions for the physical stats, but the mentem ones work fine for the mental stats.

Bob

[Aristide_le_Juste]

Thanks for your answer.

But what if I wanted the change to not be permanent. Let's say I want to have a spell that increases Strength by +3 to a maximum of +3 with a duration diameter and a target touch because I want to use it on bodyguard if we are attaqued. What would be the spell level then?

[ironboundtome]

The short answer is that by RAW you can't do that. The bumps in stats are for 1 each casting. Further that spell would automatically be a ritual, as the base plus duration plus range is higher than 50.

Base 45 for stat to +3 max, 1 for touch, 1 for diameter - and that's without perhaps adding 3 extra for the extra points.

[Marko_Markoko]

But he could set it for a max Str +2 at Base 40, +1 Touch & +1 Diameter, equals level 50 and not a Ritual. Then master it to Multicast as needed.

[ironboundtome]

Or use a Circle, it's the same as Individual.

[Aristide_le_Juste]

Thanks for the answers. I guess my exemple of a "spell that increases Strength by +3 to a maximum of +3 with a duration diameter and a target touch" was not really good so lets take those guidelines again. A lvl 35 increase by 1 to no more than +1 would be with personnal range; momentary duration and individual target. It is a ritual because it is a permanent change. Now, I want to change only the duration to, let's say, diameter. How that would that affect the level? From what ironboundtome wrote, by RAW it would be a +1 magnitude and the level would then be 40. However, again, I feel it is very odd since noy, the spell will last 2 minutes instead of forever. Ok, on the plus side, it doesn't cost vis. But still...

[callen]

@ironboundtome

The short answer is that by RAW you can't do that. The bumps in stats are for 1 each casting.

Actually, this is incorrect. RAW also included incorporating multiple bases, as is done in many spells, so long as it ties together to make a single functional spell. The standard is that you add a magnitude to the higher base. So, for example, Strength +3 to no higher than 0 would be three level-30 bases together in one spell, so that would be 30+5+5=40. Add in Touch and Diameter and you still have a non-ritual spell.

Aristide, not only do these non-Momentary spells not cost vis, but several more things:

1. it doesn't take a few hours to cast,
2. it doesn't cost long-term Fatigue, and
3. it can be placed in an item.
   So there are a lot of advantages to pushing the level higher.

[callen]

@Marko Markoko

But he could set it for a max Str +2 at Base 40, +1 Touch & +1 Diameter, equals level 50 and not a Ritual. Then master it to Multicast as needed.

I would not allow that myself. For example, would you allow someone to make a spell for Soak +1 and cast it 100 times to get Soak +100? Or would you consider those overlapping spells of the same type, providing only Soak +1?

[Marko_Markoko]

@callen

@Marko Markoko

But he could set it for a max Str +2 at Base 40, +1 Touch & +1 Diameter, equals level 50 and not a Ritual. Then master it to Multicast as needed.

I would not allow that myself. For example, would you allow someone to make a spell for Soak +1 and cast it 100 times to get Soak +100? Or would you consider those overlapping spells of the same type, providing only Soak +1?

You miss the point. With stat spells, you normally have to stack castings. The base levels are all to "increase by +1 to no higher than x".

[Berengar]

@Marko Markoko

@callen

@Marko Markoko

But he could set it for a max Str +2 at Base 40, +1 Touch & +1 Diameter, equals level 50 and not a Ritual. Then master it to Multicast as needed.

I would not allow that myself. For example, would you allow someone to make a spell for Soak +1 and cast it 100 times to get Soak +100? Or would you consider those overlapping spells of the same type, providing only Soak +1?

You miss the point. With stat spells, you normally have to stack castings. The base levels are all to "increase by +1 to no higher than x".

This is correct, as long as these spells are rituals like those of the Cult of Heroes (HoH:TL p.103): then their effects are permanent and no longer magical, and you can put another effect of magic on top without worrying about 'stacking' magical effects.

While such boosts remain magical, though, they should not stack with themselves, unless a campaign explicitly wishes them to do and rules so: casting three times Doublet of Impenetrable Silk upon a jacket does not have it bestow on its wearer a +9 to Soak, and casting three times a D: Diameter spell (based on the ArM5 p.130 box guideline) to increase the same Characteristic by one point does not give her +3 to that Characteristic.

Cheers

[callen]

@One Shot

While such boosts remain magical, though, they should not stack, unless a campaign explicitly wishes them to do and rules so: casting three times Doublet of Impenetrable Silk upon a jacket does not have it bestow on its wearer a +9 to Soak, and casting three times a D: Diameter spell (based on the ArM5 p.130 box guideline) to increase the same Characteristic by one point does not give her +3 to that Characteristic.

Exactly. Plus, as I pointed out above, the rules already contain a method for doing things like +2 to a Characteristic, which essentially just adds a magnitude to the greater of the two, which itself is totally in line with other increases (an extra magnitude for an extra +1 or +3 or +5, based off the initial increase).

[Berengar]

@callen

@One Shot

While such boosts remain magical, though, they should not stack, unless a campaign explicitly wishes them to do and rules so: casting three times Doublet of Impenetrable Silk upon a jacket does not have it bestow on its wearer a +9 to Soak, and casting three times a D: Diameter spell (based on the ArM5 p.130 box guideline) to increase the same Characteristic by one point does not give her +3 to that Characteristic.

Exactly. Plus, as I pointed out above, the rules already contain a method for doing things like +2 to a Characteristic, which essentially just adds a magnitude to the greater of the two, which itself is totally in line with other increases (an extra magnitude for an extra +1 or +3 or +5, based off the initial increase).

Yes, ArM5 p.114f Requisites provides "rules of thumb" to design such spells. Their feasibility and magnitude are left to the troupe. Especially:

@ArM5 p.115

Most such requisites add only a single magnitude to the spell level, but if the additional effect is sixth magnitude or above, it is often appropriate to add two magnitudes.

Adding two magnitudes per extra +1 to a Characteristic looks far more appropriate to me.

Cheers

[callen]

@One Shot

Especially:

@ArM5 p.115

Most such requisites add only a single magnitude to the spell level, but if the additional effect is sixth magnitude or above, it is often appropriate to add two magnitudes.

Adding two magnitudes per extra +1 to a Characteristic looks far more appropriate to me.

Yes, that seems quite reasonable. +2 magnitudes for an extra +1 makes a lot of sense.

[ironboundtome]

Note too - if an additional +1 adds two mags the temporary boost spells are not viable in the range asked by Aristide.
Base 30, 1 touch, 1 diameter, 2 for extra +1.. 50. At best the non ritual improves a lowish stat to zero for a short period.

Might have use at Personal range, but still better to spend the vis and make it permanent.

[Aristide_le_Juste]

Thanks a lot for all those answers and hints. It was very help full.

Another things that I need to confirm is the warping. I assume that if I want to use the basic (momentary/individual/personnal) lvl 35 spell version on myself. From the warping rules p167-168, it is a "Brief effect/High power" since it has momentary duration and its magnitude is 7. Is that correct?
Now, since I cast it myself and on myself, I would never get any warping point from it even if I am not the one who designed it. Is that also correct? However, if I make it a touch range to cast it on someone else, then that person would get only 1 warping point. Is that still correct?

Thanks.

[callen]

Yes, you are correct about Warping. You can, however, tailor a spell to another individual during the invention process, allowing for both you and one other person to not get Warping from the spell you cast.

[Christian_Andersen (Christian Rosenkjaer Andersen)]

@callen

Yes, you are correct about Warping. You can, however, tailor a spell to another individual during the invention process, allowing for both you and one other person to not get Warping from the spell you cast.

Huh? I would have thought such a spell is designed for one single person, not two. So the R:Touch version you design to boost your trusted grog captain without Warping him excessively does not save youself from that extra Warping.

[Tellus]

@Christian Andersen

@callen

Yes, you are correct about Warping. You can, however, tailor a spell to another individual during the invention process, allowing for both you and one other person to not get Warping from the spell you cast.

Huh? I would have thought such a spell is designed for one single person, not two. So the R:Touch version you design to boost your trusted grog captain without Warping him excessively does not save youself from that extra Warping.

You might want to re-read ArM5, p. 168 then:

@ArM5

Anyone subject to a powerful mystical effect gains a Warping Point, unless they themselves were responsible for the effect or it was specifically and carefully designed to work on them.

• thus specifically and explicitly excepting the caster.

[raccoonmask]

Since you could use MuCo to give a bonus to soak (something humans can do to a lesser degree already), could you also use MuCo to give a brief burst of unnatural strength or physical might to a human beyond what his form would normally maintain? For example, give a mortal man the strength of a bull for a diameter duration, despite him having a physically frail frame?