questions about Monica Ierne's talisman

Looking at HoH:TL for minerals - Brass has a +3Ignem bonus, bronze has a +3terram bonus - perhaps the writer put the wrong metal down for the bands? Iron would give +7 to harm or repel faeries.

To the best of my knowledge the mineral Flint and the shape of Cylinder do not have any bonuses, so I suspect the author has invented new ones. There is no "paralysis" bonus but a net does give "holding immobile +5" so maybe the bands are in a net shape on the flint cylinder?

This is actually incorrect. Talismans are created from items that have been previously prepared for enchantment by the magus (or even items that have been invested with effects, entirely done by the magus), meaning that one must be able to open a device, before making it a talisman. After that, one may add enchantment space to it, bit by bit. See page 98 of Ars Magica 5th Edition, first sentence of the second paragraph under the Talisman Attunement heading.

It's important to note that one can open any compound item for enchantment by choosing to only prepare using the highest cost item, too, in this case 2x4, or 8 pawns of Vim (Ars Magica 5th Edition, page 97, 3rd column, first paragraph. Since it's a talisman, additional S&M bonuses can be added at a later time, as more vis is added. It's only important to prepare for enchantment with multiple S&M bonuses, in cases where it isn't a Talisman, if you intend to use all of those S&M bonuses in later enchantments, or simply need the enchantment space.

You are right. I misread the question and thought about the increase in capacity one can do after attuning it as a talisman and not the initial opening of the item for enchantment.

The author may have erred, confusing Brass with Bronze: Brass +3 Ignem, HoH: MC p137.

The other bonuses I have no lead on.

I had meant to say that I had considered that, but the second point

I had been assuming that these bonuses come from the Bronze Bands, which if I understand that in order to get the Material bonus, the actual material needs to be included in the opening of the enchantment.

The only mystery virtue that Monica Ierne is listed as having is "Leadworker".

BTW a hypothetical example. Say that a magus finds a nice straight branch from a dead tree, a tree that was killed by a lightning strike, and the lightning strike left a perfect ring shaped scar in the branch, and the tree was a yew or an oak, or some other tree listed in Shape and Material tables in Rhine Tribunal book.
What Magic Theory score do you need to gain access to all the possible S&M bonuses if the magus turns that branch into his staff talisman?

You can open a compound item for enchantment by only paying the highest number of pawns required for one of its components. You still get the shape and material bonuses for all components of that item this way.

Your limit is, that the compound item cannot have more components than your Magic Theory score. Best read that up again in ArM5 p.97 Preparation for Enchantment.

Cheers

Magic Theory has nothing to do with the S&M bonuses one gains from a talisman.

Magic Theory limits the number of different materials that can be used in a composite item. Each material can provide multiple bonuses.
Magic Theory affects the maximum amount of vis one can manipulate in a season. So in this example, a staff is a large wood item so it costs 8 pawns to open, thus requiring a Magic Theory score of 4.

Magic Theory also serves as a cap on how large a S&M bonus can be applied to one's lab total when enchanting a power. So if the staff is made of oak, the S&M bonus to the lab total for enchanting a power to protect from storms (usually +7) would be limited to +4 because of the Magic Theory score.

A talisman bonus is not limited by the Magic Theory score, nor is the number of such bonuses directly limited by Magic Theory.

I find this post

https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/of-talismans-and-mt-limits/3028/20

to be invaluable when considering Talismans

Bob

Hooray!
Exactly what I was looking for.
I understand my mistake now. I had previously thought that if you invested part of a compound item, that you could only get the shape bonus of the part you hadn't invested. Now I know it is Shape and Material bonus.
Which now explains how Monica Ierne invested her Talisman (just the Flint cylinder) with her Magic Theory score of 4 (shape of wand, shape of bronze band which presumably is a ring, material of flint, material of bronze), even if I am still unaware as to where the strange material bonuses are defined.

So in the weird hypothetical from before (temporarily ignoring the ring shaped burn mark I added to make things complicated), a wooden staff only has 2 components - the shape of the Staff and the wooden material, even if the wood may fit several different categories (from a live tree, dead tree, be it Birch, Hawthorn, Oak, etc) in the Shape and Material bonus tables spread across several books. The lightning burnt ring shaped scar would add a second shape to the staff, while merely adding another category (lightning struck) for the wood to be described as. Thus making it a composite item with a total of 3 different categories of Shape and Material (2 shapes, 1 material) - most magi should have Magic Theory 3 at gauntlet.
Though they would need more Magic Theory for the Vis limit in investing the staff.

I'm glad I'm not the only one still using caribet's post.

Flint is a powerful ward against faeries and is used to bind demons in certain places, so I used it. Flint is, as I vaguely recall, her sigil? I imagine a heap of magi who have a sigil have talismans with odd material bonuses.

As to brass or bronze: in the medieval period the distinction is basically a moot one in most places, which is why many modern museums refuse either term. I wanted bronze, and given that most medieval brass is arguably a bronze, I just took what I wanted.

Yes, Monica Ierne's casting sigil is described as Flint.

I have heard that elfshot is Flint, so it is not too great a stretch for "Cause Paralysis"
I might accept the Brass is equivalent to Bronze idea, as both are alloys of Copper and I don't expect the medievals were always exact in the other metal(s).
I mean, the Shape and Material tables are sometimes annoying. Doesn't easily categorise which gems are precious or semi-precious, etc. Let alone explain what is the difference between amethyst, clear glass, crystal, quartz, and rock crystal, and where they may overlap.

That's because the Precious vs Semi-Precious system is antiquated and deprecated.

Traditionally, the following for types of gems are considered Precious (and only these): Diamond, Ruby, Saphire, Emerald.
All other gems are considered semi-precious.

and Amethyst was on this list until the 1750, when the gold rush started in Brazil, which allowed the discovery of huge amethyst mines in Minas Gerais. That is only at that time that Amethyst lost its rarity, thus was "demoted" from precious to semi-precious.

Precious and semi-precious are not used by professionals, as it does not linked to the value of a stone. The finest jade (jadeite) of imperial quality can reach price comparable to diamond. Unheated paraïba tourmaline will fetch 2'000 USD/ct, and possibly ten times this value if certified coming from the location of Paraïba (in Brazil). That's 20'000 USD/ct and it is professional price, not retail price... A one carat diamond, D, flawless will be around 10-15'000 USD.

These quotations are not 100% up-to-date, but close enough to give a good feel for what "precious" and "semi-precious".

So in Ars, regardless of the stone, if it is of high value/quality, I will go with precious (in my Saga), except for the most basic quartz.

Not quite.

A wooden staff is only a single component. You don't separate the shape and the material into different components. Even having several kinds of wood might not by itself qualify the item as having additional components, depending on what the item you are preparing for enchantment.

It is only when you add different things to your item that you add components. Physical things, not engravements done on the item. So a staff with a circular engravement or mark (by lightining or done by the craftsman) still has only a single component. And the circular engravement does not provide Shape bonuses to the staff either. An engravement or a mark is not a component.

For example, let's say the staff is made of oak. This is the first component. Adding a band (ring) of silver around your staff would add a second component. Mounting an iron ball on top of the staff would add a third component. Preparing that staff for enchantment would be possible for a magus with a Magic Theory of at least 4, since the staff is a "large wood" item and thus requires 8 pawns to prepared. The number of components would not hinder the enchanter there. Alternatively, the enchanter with a very high Magic Theory score could decide to open the staff as a coumpound item to give it more space for effects, adding the number of pawns for each component together (8 for the wood staff, 6 for the tiny silver ring and 5 for the tiny base metal ball). That would be a total of 19 pawns, thus requiring a Magic Theory of 10.* This would allow him to enchant many more effects into the staff, up to 19 pawns' worth of effects instead of a measly 8 pawns. This decision must be taken when you first prepare the item for enchantment and cannot be changed later for that item.

That staff would benefit from all of the following S&M bonuses:

  • Wand/Staff: +2 repel things, +3 project bolt or other missile, +4 control things at a distance, +4 destroy things at a distance
  • Oak: +7 protection from storms
  • Ring: +2 constant effect
  • Silver: +10 harm lycanthropes
  • Iron: +7 harm or repel faeries

All of these bonuses could be used to provide bonuses to effects enchanted into the staff.

If the staff becomes a talisman, then each of those bonuses can be selected individually to become attunements after a season of work (i.e. providing "+2 repel things", not the whole list for Wand/Staff at one time). Talismans can have as many attunements as their S&M bonuses provide, but each must be added during a separate season when you enchant effects into the talisman.


  • A Verditius magus would be able to do this with a lower Magic Theory score, since his Craft score would reduce the number of pawns needed to prepare the item. So a Verditius with a Craft score of 6 would only need a Magic Theory score of 7.

This leads to a thought that robes with many embroidered shapes might be the ideal Talismans.
Say the robe has an embroidered crown, staff, skull, pinfeather, etc amongst the stars and moons that are sometimes depicted on fantasy wizards.
A cloth robes should cost 4 pawns of Vis to initially open for enchantment. Every gauntletted magus should be able to do that (Magic Theory 2), and I would not be surprised that the parens to donate the Vis and lab time before gauntlet.
Then as the magus grows he further enchants his Talisman and attunes the various shape bonuses from the embroidery in whichever order they desire.

IIRC, there was a fantasy RPG which made self-embroidered robes the passport of the sane wizard.

But for ArM5 the embroidered handkerchief is easier to hide, repair and clean. While Jerbitons brought it up, now even Flambeaus carry it. :slight_smile:

Cheers

Earthdawn, I think?

Except that failure to "open" a part of the compound item results in an inability to make use of material bonus from those parts not opened...so in this case no silver OR iron effect bonus. This is clearly laid out in AM5...and if allowed, would totally negate the primary advantage to the Great Talisman Mystery...which allows you to add extra components to an existing Talisman....every magus would just make the most complicated item they felt like making...never knowing which bonus they might want in the future.

Check point 1D of caribet's elaboration, my statement in this thread, or just

You will see that your objection to Arthur's post does not hold up.

Cheers