Of talismans and MT limits

I had thought that there was a limit on the size of the total bonus, not on the number of sources? (e.g. a magus with MT 4 could obtain a total bonus of +4 that could come from several different shape and material bonuses).

Serf's Parma!

In a compound device, you can only combine a number of components equal to your Magic Theory score (ArM5, page 97).

When instilling an effect, your total bonus to the Lab Total from Shape and Material Bonuses cannot exceed your Magic Theory (ArM5, page 99). It is not clear (but implied) that these bonuses can come from multiple sources; i.e. if a magus has a Magic Theory of 5, they can get a +5 bonus from a wand (+4 destroy at distance) made of animal bone (+4 destroy animals) to a PeAn spell (both wand and bone are appropriate, and can give up to +8 total).

I've always assumed that talismans in particular are made up of as many components as the magus can handle, to maximise the potential for Shape and Material bonuses he may wish to call upon.


The big question is whether the MT limit to boni for Shape & Effect is the individual bonus or the total bonus. Once a decent Lab Rat gets MT 10, he's never limited. The solution to best limit potential abuse, is to limit S&E bonus totals to MT score.

Is it possible to hire a Verditius magus to make my talisman and to engrave it with his runes without opening it? Than my magus would open the item and use it as his talisman.

The total bonus is limited. See page 97 Enchanted item example.

Ok, my player has been arguing that the rules, as written, seem to indicate talismans can be opened partially, but I can't see how.

Is this how that is supposed to go, because I got even more confused with this thread!

You should refer back to ArM 5 p.97 "Preparation for Enchantment",
to ArM 5 p.98 Talisman Attunement, ArM5 p.99 Instilling the Effect, and for clarification and re-statement, to The Mysteries Revised Edition p. 89

  1. you open any device by spending a season, and must fill it with the pawns required to open it in that season, limited (by the rules) to 2Magic Theory. If MT is not enough, you can't open it. ArM5 p.97
    [i]Saga option - some allow 3
    MT, but the rules say 2[/i]

Note that an unopened device is not a talisman, nor is the initially opened device a talisman, so you are limited by MT at this stage.

1a) enchant the whole of a single substance device (size * material factor) pawns - poor choice for talisman as too few attunements
1b) enchant only part of the device as if the chosen part were the only part. Not a good option for a future talisman, as too easily broken
1c) open a compound device, with no more components than Magic Theory score, with a number of pawns equal to sum of all components.
Poor choice for talisman, as you can open more spaces later ... (good choice for small cheap device with lots of spaces.)
1D) open a compound device (num. components <= MT), with the number of pawns equal to the highest required by any single component.
Best choice for a talisman - you can get the most possible future attunements allowed by MT, while not requiring a huge MT score just to open the thing.

  1. Spend a season to turn the opened device into a talisman. Only at the end of this can you use any talisman rules. Stage 1 is not a talisman!
    ArM5 p.98

3a) re-prepare it for enchantment, with as much or little Vis as you like, up to total capacity limit of (Highest Tech + highest Form). you can do this piecewise, ArM5 p.98
3b) invest a magical effect in the talisman (limited by number of open spaces, etc), ArM5 p.98-99

3c) at the same time at 3a) or 3b) open any one new attunement, from the existing components. (This is why 1D) is such a good option!)
ArM5 p.98

4) cast a spell with talisman - bonuses from attunements only apply when the magus is touching the talisman, and only the highest bonus applies.
ArM5 p.98

Attunements apply to totals to cast Ritual, Formulaic and Spontaneous magic, but not to Magic Resistance or Lab activities. (Hence, do not apply to effects in a device, whether you are investing or triggering them -- only applies to spell casting)
ArM5 p.98

Note when investing devices that any and all Shape And Material bonuses apply, but are limited in sum by MT score./ ArM5 p.99


In short - the best way to make a talisman is with a compound device - eg a wand or staff inlaid with several woods, bone, metal or gems, with a total number of components equal to MT score. (Best wait until MT is decent!)
Choose components which will give lots of attunement bonuses later, (and will also give S&M bonuses)

Open it initially as an Enchanted Device, with number of panws = highest single component, limited by 2*MT score

Spend another season to turn into a talisman

Now spend seasons opening as many more spaces as you like: up to 2*MT per season, to a total capacity of (max(Te)+max(Fo)). This you can do in stages - this is the "open partially" bit of talismans.

Note that TMRE also has the Virtue: Great Talisman, which allows you to open attunement bonuses merely by using the talisman, and also to craft in additional components when you increase enchantment spaces - still limited to Number of Components <= MT score, but we assume MT score has increased since Talisman was first made.

As for getting a Verditius to open the Talisman - no way! ArM5 p.98 "you can only attune an item as a talisman if you prepared it for enchantment yourself." ... and "A magus may attune an item with instilled effects as his talisman, so long as he instilled all the effects personally".
Talisman magic is very personal!

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I nominate caribet's post for the FAQ because we've had this conversation more than once before (which is probably why he was able to sum it up so well in his post).

I wrote making the talisman without opening it.
Manufacturing the physical item and preparing with runes.

The process of using runes and the special Verditius crafting techniques are, according the the rules, intrinsically part of the process of enchantment. The verditius can't do that stuff without opening the item for enchantment, making it ineligible for a talisman.

That's right. For the talisman to become as closely attuned to you as needed to become a talisman, it must be part of you - you have to do everything yourself.
The most you can do involving others is to have one or more lab-assistants.

However, all of the MT score-limited elements (number of components, pawns per season etc) remain unaffected by the assistants.

I am not aware that any of the Verditius mysteries (or any others, for that matter) allow a subsidiary assistant to contribute their virtue (or special crafting technique) if the lead magus does not have the virtue (technique...) themselves

  • I would rule not if I were asked...

Really, I think the description of the restrictions on making a talisman personally are sufficiently clear and unambiguous as to their intent that one can safely rule out almost any extension which lets others do any part of it for you!

Think of it like a Mystery Initiation - you go out and gather the pieces of the future talisman, alone & un-witnessed, craft them personally, open the enchantment unaided, then bind the device to the very core of your magic. To do anything less, with less effort, would taint the talisman and its link to the core of your magic.

You CAN get a Verditius to make an Item of Quality though (If I understand it correctly..?)
I would say though that is open to debate...

Sounds like a new mystery cult/virtue... :smiley:

I'd say you could get a Verditius to make an Item of Quality (I let a magus IMS do that). As as you could get a mundane craftsman to craft a mundane item for you.
As I see it, the important thing is, that the future owner of the Talisman opens it for enchantment and instills the Talisman attunement himself. That's the personal bit needed.
Otherwise, therw would be unnecessary limits, which really was only concerning purely mundane subjects. Every item needs some crafting and prepping, from the state the thing is normally found. The iron ore needs to be dug up, smelted, forged intot he sword, the gem needs to be cut and polished etc.

Where can I found the related rules exactly?

last part of the magic chapter of the core book (not the Laboratory chapter) where mysteries are discussed.

Page 93. Second sentence of second paragraph of Verditius Magic section: "in the first season, when opening an item for enchantment, the magus may shape the raw materials into an appropriate item."

Followed by the third paragraph, first sentence:

"Most Verditius magi creating such items do so in a way, blah, blah, blah.."

These quotes aren't related to the subject.

The second paragraph says the Verditius can use his tricks during the enchantment. So this may be the solution because enchantment involves opening the item.

Then I guess I don't understand the topic... I thought it was whether a verditius could make an item with verditius runes that someone else made into an talisman. That was what my reply you asked for rules support for was about....

And that is pretty clearly not legal, as the Runes are applied in the process of opening the item for enchantment... which precludes the item from being used by anyone else for talismanic purposes.

What question were you actually asking?

Nevermind! :smiley:
You got it and your answer is right. I just said the key is not your quotes but mine. That's all.

I have a question.

Imagine that 1 effect take 9 seasons to instill. (Labtotal is 200, effect is level 180)

Can i get 9 attunements open, or only 1?

9, you're working on it for 9 seasons. Same as if you made 9 seasons worth of single-season enchantments.