Questions about Verditius Magic again.

Now it's about charged items, that i don't remember if get the bonuses about Craft and Philossophy Abilities if a Verditius makes it.
And, an important question more, can a verditius make a lab text useful for a No verditius Magi? Can a Verditius use a Labtext using theirs benefit Mystery Magic?

Yes, Verditius do get the benefit of the appropriate Craft and Philosophiae with charged items.

And a non-Verditius can use a Verditius lab text; he will have to use his own Lab Total, obviously, which means no Craft or Philosophiae bonus, but that does not prevent him from gaining the benefit of the lab text.

Don't forget that in canon a Verditius will be very reluctant to share a lab text with any Mystery information with someone outside the house. They lost the Automaton Mystery that way and are still very touchy about it.

Yes, i can suppose taht, but a young with a poor Verditius Lore (or no singel Experience point) Can grant a realtively hig lab text to another Magi without think the Risk, and the new owner can don't figure nothing about the Mysteries exposed, that are only the Craft adding making the enchanted items in the process and the Philosphy upon Verditus Runes, and the other could be mor inclined to get involeved in the Mystery or devoleping the benefits needing a Breacktroguh and taht can serve to story.
Thanks by the answers.
And a point, it's clear that a Verditius find better creat his owns items to enchant and that he can do it. But the anothers magi need create them before or take it finished before. That means that a magi using a lab text needs to find the object to enchant. Not?

Yes, i can suppose taht, but a young with a poor Verditius Lore (or no singel Experience point) Can grant a realtively hig lab text to another Magi without think the Risk, and the new owner can don't figure nothing about the Mysteries exposed, that are only the Craft adding making the enchanted items in the process and the Philosphy upon Verditus Runes, and the other could be mor inclined to get involeved in the Mystery or devoleping the benefits needing a Breacktroguh and taht can serve to story.
Thanks by the answers.
And a point, it's clear that a Verditius find better creat his owns items to enchant and that he can do it. But the anothers magi need create them before or take it finished before. That means that a magi using a lab text needs to find the object to enchant. Not?

I've always played it that a non-Verditius cannot use a lab text of a Verditius. Arm5, page 102 first column "The Lab Total is calculated in exactly the same way when working from a Laboratory Text as when working without one." I take this to mean that a non-Verditius cannot reproduce what the Verditius did so therefore cannot use the Lab Text.

Also, allowing this use devalues the Mystery of Verditius. Other breakthroughs cannot, generally, be used by non Initiates. Why should Verditius Mysteries be used?

my two cents,

Rich

I agree, mysteries are not new ways, new recipes, to use fancy magic: the initiation changes the magus gift or nature in a way he can use the fancy magic. Making it accessible to everyone in hermetic magic system would require some more work.

I don't read this the way that Rich has. Instead of reading it as

  • "The Lab Total is calculated in exactly the same way [for the current magus as for the old maga] when working from a Laboratory Text as when working without one."

I read it as

  • "The Lab Total is calculated in exactly the same way when [the current magus is] working from a Laboratory Text as when [the current magus is] working without one."

In other words, I take the sentence to be about the game mechanic of how Lab Totals are calculated, not about the IC question of whether or not the current magus can use the Lab Text.

Regarding the latter question, I agree that those uninitiated in relevant Mysteries would not be able to use those lab texts (for enchanting casting tools or building automata, for example). If it were a Lab Text concerning an enchanted item on which the old maga used Verditius Elder Runes, my instinct is that the current magus could still use the Lab Text, but would just have to skip over the parts with the Elder Runes (remember, he is re-inventing the enchantment for himself) or else try unsuccessfully to reproduce any benefit from them.

I agree, the sentence probably was meant to mean a general statement about how lab texts work (same procedure as without one). Combine that with the whole section where it goes into detail regarding how all the options must be the same. I see no reason to allow someone to use a LT where VER were used (or any other mystery, outer mysteries included) to simply ignore that part. A LT gives a significant boost to the lab total, remember, even with the Mystery parts set to zero; to allow someone to use a LT while not be able to understand a significant part of the LT, to me, is to allow a barely trained medic to perform brain surgery with essentially no penalty. It gives a massive bonus for free and devalues the time and energy of those in the Mysteries.

mileage varies, obviously,

Rich

I don't think that means what you think it does. Otherwise a Lab Text for a "wand of the undead" created by a magus with a Focus in Necromancy would be unusable by any magus without a Focus in Necromancy. Or a Lab Text created by a magus working with an Apprentice would be unusable by a magus working alone.

The rule you quote just means that you use the same mechanics to generate a Lab Total regardless of whether you have a Lab Text or not.

I would play it that any magus could use a Lab Text created by a Verditius as long as the actual effect did not rely on any special Verditius Virtues. The magus using the Lab Text would need to be able to generate a sufficient Lab Total, of course, and the magus can use whatever Virtues, assistants, Lab Features he has access to for generating the Lab Total, which will be likely different to the way that the Verditius originally generated the Lab Total.

If the effect actually requires special Virtues to invent then only characters with those Virtues can use the Lab Text. Which applies regardless of whether either character is a Verditius. Such a Lab Text would however count as a Source of Insight for a character who lacked the special Virtue, but was seeking to invent the special Virtue.

Yes, compare to Elder Runes or Potent Magic that do more than changing the Lab Total. And read the next paragraph : "No feature of a spell ... may be changed ...". I think the key factor is whether the Virtue changes the item or not.

Absolutely. If the character is just using a Virtue to calculate a Lab Total in a different way, then that has no (game mechanical) effect on the actual Lab Text that is produced. Note, that I said "game mechanical" there. I accept that a Lab Text written by a Verditius probably (in character) phrases things differently to a Lab Text written by (say) a Bjornaer (and has more oil stains, and less paw prints on it). But (apart from the need to understand idiosyncratic notation) this sort of distinction has no game mechanical meaning.

If the Virtue is actually part of the effect, then you need the Virtue to follow the Lab Text. Which shouldn't be the sort of thing that surprises a character --- the character following the Lab Text shouldn't have to waste a season to find this out. It should be obvious in a cursory read of the Lab Text that takes maybe hours of in-game time. Of course, the character wouldn't necessarily know what she was missing, but she should fairly quickly realise that "there be weird stuff in this lab text".

I think that a important difference is that a Verditius can craft the itme like part ot the enchantment, adding his Craft: X to the Lab Total, but any other magi need have the object before to begin to enchant it... except that could create all the object of any way in the time taht don't waste the station...

I think that a important difference is that a Verditius can craft the itme like part ot the enchantment, adding his Craft: X to the Lab Total, but any other magi need have the object before to begin to enchant it... except that could create all the object of any way in the time taht don't waste the station...