Questions of Residency

"If" he returns to Andorra. Remember as it was discussed by Solomon, there is absolutely no guarantee that someone who has taken up residence in the Baelric Isles will ever be offered a sanctum in Andorra in the future.

When, precisely, was that made clear? All I saw was talk of a three-year stay in the Balearics as being counted as one "service" to the covenant. I don't recall eternal banishment being on the table.

My understanding was very different. And had I known that you intended to have two different categories of journeymen (i.e., those eternally tied to the Balearics, and those free to act as they chose), I might have handled things quite differently with Lucas. For solid House Mercere reasons, he wants to eventually come to Andorra proper. If that it forever off the table because he starts off in the Balearics, then we have to talk. As much as the Balearics sould like a lot of fun, I'd rather not live out my life as an exile.

This is the the relevant discussion, and why Solomon made it very clear to ask Lucas which he wanted to apply for:

Hmm... provide them other supplies for their mystical studies...
like access to books?
The argument could be made that if Vocis is not willing to be reasonably accommodating in allowing us to check out books to Mallorca that we should be able to relocate to Andorra proper since we are being deprived of such access which is necessary to our mystical studies...
and after some consideration and being made aware of the danger to transportation, Fleur has decided not to go on the trip to Giza. After all asking to take a book on a trip where her presence would guarantee a ship wreck is not something she would do, even if Vocis didn't oppose the idea of bringing the book to Giza in the first place.

Ah, yes, the part of the discussion where Lucas was out of the room. :slight_smile:

But one could certainly argue (and persuasively, I tend to think), that something as important as the requirement of permanent residency from now until the end of your time with the covenant would not be reasonably interpreted as being included in the term "condition of residence at the Baelric Isles."

In fact, I wonder whether, if that requirement were explicitly stated, all of the journeymen now at the Balearics would have agreed to those terms.

For my part, I have nothing against something like a rotating set of magi-in-residence, or some other solution that secures protection for the vis supply. But I question the wisdom of making the Balearics into a de facto ghetto where a second class of magi are forced to live.

I guess that in this case the ones that might get pissed off the members of House Mercere. They wanted a Gifted member of their stationed in Andorra. Balearics is nominally Andorra, but they might not see it as such. Andorra risks losing its Mercere status if he starts acting like a jerk towards one of their most valued members. The other journeymen might think likewise. The accept temporary exile, not permanent banishment from Andorra proper. They might chose to stay in the Balearics, but that is not guaranteed.

EDIT: So, I agree with Trogdor. :slight_smile:


It occurs to me that the covenant could easily treat this sort of the way the military operates. You have an initial tour of duty that you have to serve in the Balearics (some term of years). Then, after that, you can relocate back to Andorra proper, but you are then required to be deployed back to the Balearics with a certain frequency (maybe one year out of three or a two-year stay every six years, or something like that.)

There are solutions out there that secure the safety of the vis without requiring permanent exile.

So, Solomon did offer up this possibility, "At a minimum, we should require them to spend 7 seasons at Sa Dragonera before relocating to the main covenant after a vote of the masters, just as they would have to wait 7 seasons to become journeymen otherwise. That was a stipulation to the membership as journeymen, and should not be overlooked."

His primary concern was due to something Carmen had said, that essentially Lucas could say, "I want to join as a Journeyman at Sa Dragonera," in order to fast track membership and then turn around a season or two later and say, "I'm a journeyman, so give me a sanctum at Andorra," and that we would be required to do so. He pointed out that the Charter simply states that the covenant has to provide a sanctum, and it has, and thus has no obligation to provide one at Andorra in the future.

That doesn't mean you can't, it just means there is no guarantee. In Lucas' case, I would think there is a strong chance the Council would agree to find him a sanctum at Andorra proper.

As for the other journeymen not agreeing….Acutus definitely wants to stay at Sa Dragonera for obvious reasons. I would think Pere might as well, in order to keep scrutiny of his activities limited. And Roberto strikes me as someone who would like to stay away from the politics that always seem to occur at a covenant. But those are just my thoughts.

That you consider the magi at Sa Dragonera as second-class citizens and it as a ghetto are your (or Lucas’) own personal bias. Yes it has a lower Aura and no Aegis, but you have a lot more freedom in the construction of your lab and much less oversight over your activities.

Which is exactly why Solomon stated to both Lucas and the members of the Council that he preferred Lucas to be stationed at Andorra.

Well, Lucas certainly isn't looking to turn around in a couple of seasons and come back. I was thinking maybe in the 3-5 year range. And even with that, I would have no trouble with occasional periods stationed back at the Balearics.

Okay, I may have gotten carried away in my arguments. :blush: I guess I just got too into the moment.

It's not really that bad. It's was just that word "permanent" that stuck in my head.

Please don't think I'm a troublemaker. :slight_smile:

Yeah, I didn't think he was, but the rules have to cover all eventualities. Basically he would need to petition the council for a change in residence and the council would decide whether there is "room at the inn," so to speak, while also ensuring it doesn't leave Sa Dragonera unprotected. But, in Solomon's mind, someone who petitions in the standard fasion, as a Pledge, should have precedence in such cases, because they chose to wait it out, versus jumping to the fast lane to get journeyman status.

I can see that. But there ought to be a time when an Andorra journeyman and a Sa Dragonera journeyman are on the same footing (say, after the SD journeyman has put in three years - or whatever). Yes, the Andorra journeyman went through a Pledge period. But the SD journeyman suffered some years of deprivation. At some point they ought to balance out.

One analogy I can think of is US citizenship. A foreigner can get US citizenship by filing an application, waiting for a green card, eventually getting a green card (if they're lucky), waiting, filing for citizenship, waiting again, etc. In the alternative, a foreigner can join the US military and go through a very streamlined process. But at the end of the day, they're both US citizens.

Yea, the one who joined the military got to go into the fast lane. But they paid for that right through military service. Presumably after some term of years in Sa Dragonera, the SD journeyman will have paid for the lost seven months as Pledges.

Those are my thoughts.

It seems to be implied by forcing the journeymen to station themselves in Sa Dragonera that it is worse off than the main covenant, right? It was made quite explicit by the council after all. If it is a perception of the characters I guess it has a lot to do by how it was shovelled to them by the council.

For what it's worth, my understanding of the plan was that the journeymen would spend some set amount of time at Sa Dragonera (7 years?), after which they would be elevated to masters and free to live wherever they wish. I'm not sure that was explicitly stated anywhere, it's just what I thought we were doing.

There are lots of reasons why Pere will want to stay in Mallorca permanently. Keeping our resident Quaesitor from looking over his shoulder is just one of them. :slight_smile:

I snipped this long debate to a new thread :smiley:
I think PoB is just trying to scare you guys. You all have equal votes on the council and can influence decisions like this. And this chapterhouse might close up, and then what will they do? Further, heavy handed oppression will inspire separatist motivations. Roberto will agitate we should form our own covenant if the wise masters push us around too much.

First of all, no one has "forced" anyone to be stationed at Sa Dragonera. We have allowed Pledges to choose to be stationed at Sa Dragonera and thus become journeymen immediately, vice waiting 7 seasons and petitioning after performing 3 services to the covenant. This was because we needed magi there now to protect our assets, and because it is recognized that the situation there is a bit...austere.

The assumption originally was that those choosing to be there would be magi that would prefer to operate in that more austere, but less controlling environment (ie. Acutus and Pere and maybe Roberto). To them, it isn't a disadvantage at all.

Now for some, for example those with a political bent, or who want a high aura in order to perform lab work (say a Bonisagus or Verditius), it would be seen as an imposition, which is why they may choose to petition as a Pledge in the normal way prescribed in the Resolutions of Charter.

As I said, Solomon isn't against the journeymen petitioning for a change in venue after a reasonable amount of time, he just has pointed out that the covenant has no requirement to provide a sanctum at Andorra proper if one has already been provided at Sa Dragonera.

That's a fair statement.

So, while researching some info for the library thread, I stumbled upon something that might completely change Lucas' status. When we were setting up the Mercere Lodge, a charter was written detailing the arrangement. If you follow the link, the initial wording of one of the provisions of the charter stated, "Andorra will offer membership at Master level to any one Mercurian magus Mercere, at House Mercere's discretion." This seemed too steep to Marko (and I agree) and so he recommended changing it to, “Andorra will always hold one membership seat to be held by a magus of House Mercere. If the seat is vacant, House Mercere may assign one at their discretion. The covenant may invoke the right to require House Mercere to provide up to three candidates."

Now I think the intent was that it would read, "“Andorra will always hold one membership seat to be held by a GIFTED magus of House Mercere. If the seat is vacant, House Mercere may assign one at their discretion. The covenant may invoke the right to require House Mercere to provide up to three candidates."

If Marko and/or PB can confirm that, then it changes things for Lucas. Essentially Lucas would be granted journeyman status immediately without need for the 7 seasons and 3 services, and could reside at Andorra.

Darn. That would have been sweet. :smiley:

Lucas would, of course, be more than happy to make use of such a provision. In that case he would volunteer to go to the Belearics for a 3-4 year tour in lieu of one of his three master tasks. (Mostly because I had a great idea for quarters and a lab in Mallorca). But ultimately he'd leave the decision of whether he should go or not to the masters. If they really wanted to have him stay in Andorra, Lucas wouldn't push the issue.