I guess that intensifying the heat in such an extreme way is not possible with Muto alone, but needs Creo.
My guts are telling me Muto(Creo)Ignem though.
If a fire resembles the idea of a fire more closely, creo is needed.
I do not see why a hotter fire is a better fire. We ain't talking about women...
I've been mulling this issue over in my head. Like Tellus, if I were the SG and Ranulf were a PC I'd want make it necessary. However after reflection I don't think that it is.
first of all I don't believe that a caster takes damage from creating dangerous things at range touch (the core book CrIg spell Palm of flame is a specific example of this in action) so dealing with +50 or 55 damage shouldn't be necessary. Yet the staff still needs to touch the +15 or +20 pillum in order to work.
Aside from the can of worms you open when you say that a single PoF can do damage to multiple targets, there is the fact that PoF is not a range personal spell and it therefore needs to penetrate MR to do damage. There is little chance of even Ranulf throwing a PoF that penetrates his own parma (he mastered PoF for defense, so his effective MR at this age is 140).
One can turn this around and then ask, if the PoF can't do damage to the staff how can the staff touch the PoF to invoke the MuIg effect? I'd say that there are a few examples of casters being able to touch magically created thing. If a caster creates a horse using the Wizard's mount the horse does not need to be cast with sufficient penetration to penetrate the caster's parma in order for the caster to later cast steed of vengeance on it.
Just to be clear Ranulf has ward against immolation and wizard's endurance (ignem) at 40 so he can give himself (and thereby his talisman) sufficient heat resistance at duration sun. This isn't about me trying to sneak more power into the character. I just want to do it correctly. The arguments I laid out seem to fall suspiciously favorably for Pila of unmatched heat (the staff gets to touch them but they can't do any damage. Isn't that convenient?). I'd like another person to think it through and see if there is a flaw in my reasoning.
Thing is (as I see it), that we have one of 2 situations:
- By the description, PoF causes a jet of flame to shoot from your hand towards the target.
If you want your talisman to touch this spell, it must touch the flame and so risk comming on fire.
In all probability that would happen once, and from my side would be intended as a story element more than a penalty.
OR
- By strict reading purely of rules, the fire is created and the point of the target.
The jet of flame is purely cosmetic.
It would then be very hard to argue how the staff touches the spell, but obviously there's no risk it catches fire.
Now, I personally think option 2) is hogwash, but it came up in a session some years ago, when someone tried to fastcast a CrTe stone wall in lieu of countermagic.
The stone wall was CrTe 5 and by far the easiest choice, but if the fire only really existed at the point of the target...?
I personally like version 1) better, but please understand that the talisman catching fire is not intended to penalize the player so much as to give colour to a scene.
Actually the part of shooting from your hand to the target is cosmetic. By the RAW POF creates the fire readily at the destination point. If you could see the target through a tinny keyhole you could POF it none the less, even if the fireball could not shoot from your hand to the target.
If you are interested in a POF that really shots from your hand towards the target, Marko Markoko re-built the old POF from previous editions (IIRC he called it Wrath of Reculed or something like that) a while ago. It shpuld be (at least) in tthe description of Rodrigo Ex Flambeau in the Andorra saga subforum.
Xavi
Xavi's right.
Probably agreed.
Muto would be good for a simple +5, but for more, Muto(Creo) would probably be better.
I agree, for all the reasons that you saif, but also because as I see it, the "touch" range of Mu(spell) is the range to the place where the spell is actually cast/created. The range to the magical matrix, if you want.
Or else, how do you touch a Mentem spell? A Vim spell? A ward spell? A CrIg spell that puts a target you see on fire? Or even a Doublet of Impenetrable Silk (no, you don't need to touch the clothes: You need to touch the spell). This would bar metamagic for all but some Creo Spells. This would also mean that, to affect a Wall of Stone, you'd need not to touch the caster, but be ready to touch the wall at the instant it's created.
IMO? No.
So a spell matrix is created It starts at the magus,and ends where the targeted person stands (I prefer avoiding the word target). It - magically - crosses the room between those points. So yes, a talisman can touch it and not burn.
Remember that this is a muto ignem spell not a MuVi, this makes me leery about the discussion of spell matrices. I think the questions are:
Is the fire at the location of the caster? To which I am inclined to say yes, even if it's only cosmetic it's still fire it's still there
Can the talisman touch it? I'm also inclined to say yes because it really screws things up if you say no.
If the talisman touches the fire , does the talisman get burned? My present position is to say no it doesn't get burned. Here's an analogous situation that I think lays out why I hold this position; A maga creates a sword with a low penetration CrTe(An) spont. she can wield the sword so she can touch it. She later has the sword ripped from her hands and used against her. when this happens her parma protects her from the sword. So, in effect, magi can have have their cake and eat it too. they get to touch dangerous things if they want but their parma protects them even if they do. (and Ranulf's talisman is protected by his parma)
Whatever your final decision on this is Eric, the debate has sure granted me some xp on MT (a shame I'm not Gifted...)
See? Correspondence from Covenants works :mrgreen:
Now we can bind the thread and print it to end up with a Tractatus on Magic Theory or the Art of Muto. A nice lil' addition to anyone's library.
Cheers,
Xavi
An important distinction.
To me, this is really the non-trivial bit.
My position is that if the talisman is in contact (touch) with the fire, ignition is an issue.
This is really the thing about MR isn't it hough? Because this tastes like "intelligent MR"
This ofcourse an extremely relevant consideration. Especially snce the staff would also (IIRC) recieve his form bonus against fire damage.
EDIT: I clearly can't spell today. 
And you can POF someone with a sight ranged one by looking through a window at a mirror showing your target behind a corner...
Or by using a AC to a suitable location you can use a sight ranged POF to hit anything that you can see with a scrying spell using that AC.
How does the cosmetic part appear then i wonder BTW...
Sorry, if thereĀ“s anything in RAW that i really dislike, the "effect appears at target" as a general truth is possibly the biggest. Used it once, never again.
Also, letting the "cosmetics" be for real, allows you extra options for whatever is targeted(like an alert and spry person has a chance to dash away from the crosshair, or a third person to jump in between, intentionally or not) as well as potential accidents between caster and target.
I would say the damage increase is too dramatic and/or the base level too low.
And i think the spell also needs Creo as requisite, even with a lower bonus the change is such a radical increase that it seems needed. Too much creation/adding going on for it to be just manipulation.
I would prefer either limiting the increase in damage to that of the original spell, or changing base level from 1 to 5, ie the full first magnitude. Or both.
If i scale it back into a regular spell, i can have a level 35 MuIg spell that allows me to cast single level 20 POFs doing +50 damage. With my suggestion it would result in +30 damage POF, still very effective.
Ah well, iĀ“ve always been a bit cautious on the Muto spells not becoming too excessive, so my opinion on this shouldnt be taken too strongly.
Well, if this bugs you, the range must be to where the fire is created, that is, the target. So you need a bigger range.
The pilum no more burns the wand that it burns the magician's hand.
How often in fantasy do you see wizards cast fireballs and lightning through their wand? Way more often IMO than through their hand. This is such a staple of fantasy that I wouldn't mind a player stating that his pilum are cast through his talisman when he holds it. Especially if his talisman is attuned to the creation of fire or else and actually boosts his casting totals
Nice angle on the discussion. I completely agee in the above.
Entirely valid argument.
With regards to the discussion about whether a Pilum of Fire crosses the distance between caster and target;
A few pages ago in this thread Mr. Tyrrell referred to the combination Wizard's Endurance + Pilum as a "Flamethrower"
How would you interpret the results of such a combination, effectively a Diameter-duration Pilum of Fire?
A) Aimable flamethrower effect
B) Target remains on fire and suffers damage for 2 minutes
C) The pilum flies away, damaging and going through any obstacles in its path.
B), as per p. 112 of the core book.
As per the RAW, B. If he invents an "old style" POF (very easy for Ranulf) it would be A+C, since it is a flamethrower and everything in his path would be damaged. Be sure to have a "stop ignem spell" handy for when you are done with it.
Cheers,
Xavi
Thanks, but another "Ranulf" question has sprung up.
There's something fishy about the level calculation for "Surfeit of Fuel", MoH p. 115.
It is written as:
Cr He 25 (Touch / Sun / Group)
Base 4 +1 Touch +2 Sun +2 Size
The Group calculation seems to be gone, and I cannot find what Base it refers to. The most relevant I can find is Base 1 for Create a plant...
I would have built the same as Base 1 +1 touch +2 sun +2 group +2 size = Cr He 20.
Am I missing something? There is no official erratum about this spell.
I don't think so.
Since you're creating a fire at some place, I would say that the fire stays there for 2 minutes (unless, maybe, the range was personnal.
This is like a Creo spell to create a light, a fireplace, a plant, or a stone wall: Once created, it stays there for the duration, and doesn't move around if you don't do something about it. It may ignite things, though, and these (natural) spells will have their own duration.
For the flame/pilum to follow the target around, I'd either:
- Require a Duration: Concentration, probably with a Rego requisite. This'd allow you, IMO, to change targets.
- Use the (harder) guideline for a fire that clings to its target. Serf's parma, but I believe it's the one used in Cload of Flames (just dump the rego requisite that protects you. And then, it would cling to a given target.
I'd do it as a Cr(Re)Ig spell: create the fire at touch range, throw it with Rego. Quite ineficient, though.