Rego Craft which magic family would be the best ?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
8

Just to understand well

you dont think Keen vision +3 sight roll ( even finesse) + per 3 + finesse itself lets say at beginning would be 1 + Puissant 2 = Dice +9 at level 1 of finesse,
if i go to jerbiton i could get a free expression which bring to dice +12 or this famousely Cautious with finesse
For the finess
It seem that i can easily reach 15 to 18 with a finesse of 3/4 and even better if i raise in it no ?

I understand elementalism seem not so great, but i have a gamemate who do have an elementalist and do amazing things with it.

I was wondering that manipulate , terram ( stone or metal) mix with any of the other element would work well for a builder
Exemple a house which warm it self or is ward against cold, i just need to add the Ignem requisite, even more the Aquam requisite if i want to protect it from water

Am i wrong in my thinking ?

I mean rego craft is one objective but i tend to not overspecialised and be versatile thats why i thought elemental was interesting, i did hesitate with second insight at first.
Now from what you says i think even Diedne Magic would be amazing ...
My Sg forbit Magical Foci so i didnt use it
As for Cautious with finesse i have to admit it seem very interesting, maybe i should loose Puissant Parma even though i realize that being very useful since there is no book of parma and after level 5 it is lots and lot of Practice to raise that one which seem to be a waste of time.

About Rustic i have to admit that i agree with Ovarwa the Weak spontanous Magic is a flaw i cant stand with. Because it meen that you have to have a magus which spend lot of time in his lab to develop formulic and never go out or focus really on his craft.

As for Merenita well we begin when we are not even discovered , so no mystery cult , but i have to admit i didnt knew about the charm, i will look into it

9

Hi,

I am having a hard time understanding what you write, for which I apologize. But if I understand you correctly, you believe that Keen Vision ought to apply to your Finesse rolls. I do not think that is usually true canonically, and in the absence of an explicit game rule, I would certainly not allow your interpretation, because manipulating magic is about a lot more than vision, and many Finesse rolls are not even based on Perception. But if I am wrong, or if you are allowed to do this in your saga, then Keen Vision for the win!

Free Expression would only apply to Finesse rolls for making art. Any other use of Finesse, including those that seem to be mostly about "can I make something that works" is not included. GM call.

But again, if you know that in your saga, any crafting can be considered close enough to art, congrats!

Regardless, more Finesse is better, especially as your projects become more ambitious. And Cautious with Finesse is key.

As an aside, Learned Magicians can utterly rule this space. Fortunam charms to grant themselves big bonuses to Perception or Intelligence, to Finesse, and grab a few useful virtues for a while, and make botches impossible. Magicam to temporarily grant oneself a Greater Power to perform the necessary Rego magic.

More is better, especially as your projects get bigger.

That's not about the virtue.

lol Maybe we're just not talking about the same thing? Canonically, craft magic tends to refer to Rego magics that do normal things but via magic. In the core rules, such magics can get around mundane processes but absolutely must achieve results that in theory could have been achieved through mundane, non-magical means, though perhaps only by an extremely competent craftsman, or large group of craftsmen, or very large craftsman, etc. So this kind of magic cannot make a house that warms itself or wards against cold (which is itself an iffy proposition, since cold isn't a thing in Hermetic magic, but that's a tangent, and a search of these forums might turn up old conversations about it.)

Of course, your game might have different rules! (Which would also explain why Elementalist is a good virtue in your game. And there's nothing at all wrong with playing differently. Whatever is fun. It's just that to the extent that your group has changed the rules, anything said here is not relevant.)

Not really. DM doesn't help you get big totals across multiple Forms. It doesn't help you reduce botches. It is good for casting without Fatigue, and that doesn't matter here.

Anyway,

Ken

10

Jerbiton is clearly the traditional choice, and has some obvious optimization possibilities. Merinita based faerie magic also clearly has benefits, especially with faeries having the intriguing relationship they do with artists...
Flambeaux doesn't fit to me stylistically unless you are wanting to be a combat engineer. Tremere would certainly have ways to make use of such a character, but I don't see that leading to a lot of stories as you would probably be a support character in the Tremere military structure.
Tytalus could be interesting- not necessarily advantageous but it definitely gives you a point of interaction with mundanes for building webs of intrigue...
Bjorner would be a fairly neutral choice with a bird or beaver for a heart beast
Bonisagus just doesn't seem to fit really...
Criamon might have a path that fits, but doesn't otherwise seem to type.
Mercere I would advise against- there are generally too many players with mercer mages and canonically too few Mercere mages in existence (I was in one game where apparently 1/4 of the Mercere ages in the world were located in our covenant)
Ex Miscelanea has some excellent opportunities- especially if the storyguide is willing to allow you to craft your own tradition within it.
Guernicus could fit from a historical perspective (the founder was a master of terram) but otherwise doesn't add much benefit
Verdituous is a poor choice as you will be using finesse to replace craft abilities, while Verditious use craft abilities to enhance enchanting- literally opposite ends of the construction spectrum.

11

i don't believe that Keen Vision should apply to Per+Finesse rolls. The spells are momentary in duration, hard to see and react quickly to magic within that time. Rather, The use of perception with Finesse is the ability of the magus to control and shape his magic to do something nearly instantaneously. If eyesight were used, the mistakes would have happened, already. If you want to improve the total, use Precise Casting spell mastery ability, from HoH:S.

Cautious with Ability doesn't remove the chance of a botch, you still have a single botch die.

Agree with Ovarwa on the Free Expression (and Muse, by extension) virtues.

12

Hi,

Nope! It differs from Cautious Spellcaster. CwA only removes 2 dice, but does not include the usual 'roll at least one die.'

Edit: Unless there is some errata I don't know about.

Anyway,

Ken

13

I forgot to declare serf's Parma!

14

:slight_smile:

Cautious with Ability is fantastic for characters who use the same Ability over and over.

Hedge Wizards of various stripes should note that it works just fine with Accelerated Abilities too. (IIRC, Solomonic Arts are really AAs....)

Anyway,

Ken

15

Since I have a keen interest in Crafting magic, I will point you tothis discussion (shameless self-promotion), where I presented three crafting magi. There is some flaws that I did not fixed in the thread but that can easily be fixed.

Some of the learning points I gather from this previous discussion:

  • Check with your troop if Finesse rolls are made with Int or Per and bump this characteristic to +3 (if you have spare virtue, you can try to go to +5, but it is unlikely to happen)
  • Although not explicitly spell in the rules, Keen vision does not apply to Finesse rolls. First, it make it more powerful than Puissant (Finesse) since it is a +3 instead of a +2, and second it would have a much broader application (since it will apply not only to Finesse roll but any Awareness and other sight-based non-combat skills
  • Magical focus or other virtue allowing to invent or cast high level spells are not really needed: you won't have to Penetrate when you build a house, thus as long as you can cast the spell, you won't have any use for the excess casting total. It might take you one or two more seasons to invent your spells, but you don't need that many and you might trade your service for spells;
  • If you want to build really large building, you will have to find a way to build it in several pieces, because the Finesse difficulty is directly linked to the time it would take to build by mundane means the objet/building you are crafting. A castle would take decades to build thus the Finesse roll would be in the 40+ to have it made by a single spell (p93, Hermetic Projects, building a grain barge with a single ReHe(Te) spell has a Finesse difficulty of 30). In the same topic I linked, I made a proposal to have Rego craft spell with a duration of Concentration to have a finer control, thus a lower Finesse roll. It is in the area of agreement by the troop, so discuss that ahead of time to avoid being disappointed.

It is very likely that your mage will have to develop a few mundane skills (like Profession: Architect, or Craft: Mason), so Adept Student might not be a waste of Virtue. In HoH: Societas p60-64, there is a few rules on how to make Masterpieces with Rego magic. For example, having a deep familiarity (appropriate skill of 5) grants a +3 bonus on Finesse roll.
Also, having this kind of mundane expertise could justify how you can use several Rego spell to build step by step a building, with an lower Finesse score instead of a single spell with very high difficulty: your mundane expertise allows you to deconstruct your building project in several small ones, of lower difficulty, thus with a higher chance to product a masterwork. Something that a magus with knowledge of how to build a house would have no idea how to manage.

Just for the sake of example:
Per: +3
Finesse: 7+2 (Puissant) - possible to achieve out of apprenticeship without being completely crippled in other skills
Bonus for familiarity: +3 (Prof: Architect: +5)
Total: +15
If you are willing to spend a season planning your construction, your ST might likely give you an extra +3, for a final +18. P61 of HoH: Societas, ease factor of 18 qualify as daily work of exceptionally skilled artists. If you can fragment your casting so each of them complete the equivalent of a month of work by one man, you will have the construction achieved by an exceptionally skilled artists.
For a magus fresh out of gauntlet, that's quite optimised.
After several years, once Finesse is at 10, you can bypass the season of preparation to achieve the same result. You should have quite some reputation by that time.
You will notice that this package of virtues is relatively light: Affinity + Puissant (Finesse), Puissant (Prof: Architect), Skilled Parens because you will need the extra XP, Free expression because it will help with artistic creation, that is 4 minor virtues, leaving you room to boost a bit your Arts (Terram/Herbam/Rego most likely).
If you are allowed to use slow construction spells requiring Concentration, then obviously Puissant Concentration is highly recommended. Cautious with Finesse as well since you will be rolling a lot of these dices.

You can get idea for your construction spells in Hermetic Projects - The Hermetic Shipyard and in Covenants in the section Magical Alternatives to Covenfolk. Basically, your typical construction spell would be around levels 20 to 30. Not elementary, but they don't require magical focus to be achievable.

16

Serf's Parma, but I believe that Societates makes clear that Creo crafting spells use Int for their Finesse rolls and Rego uses Perception.

17

Thank you Ezzchiel
i did read your post, which was very interesting and full of information.
As for all of you, you did open my mind and made able to ask correct question.

So what i did was

  1. to ask to my Sg if keen Eyes bonus was applied for finesse roll in Rego Craft
  2. As well ask if my Sg was taking Int or Per for Finesse roll, so far i had a partial anwswear which was i could need to use Dex as well.
  3. I will still try Elementalism for Major Hermetic, to see what could i do or not with it !
  4. If i end up with Jerbiton i will take Cautious with Finesse
  5. I agree that Merenita ( for the charm mysteries) and the artistic stories it could bring out or Ex miscellanea are quite interesting
  6. I never tried Tytalus and to be honest i dunno if my rp personnality would fit
  7. Even if i dont like Tremere in an other saga i could open my mind to go in such ordered family.
    8 ) From your information i plan to raise Prof Architect up to 5 but as well raise my prof Sculpture who knows if i need money to some point.
  8. Never try to pull up an entire building from one spell but i must do it part by part .

Now from this i have a question which spell you think it would be to go for ? as quickly as i can ?

Finally Elezechiel brougt to the light an interesting question in my mind :

First of all where did you found the Faerie God Blood -Fafner ? I have been looking around for a list of those god blood and never found one
Sympathy is a +4 bonus in appropriate god blood craft or ability ?

18

Just because your House has a mission doesn't mean your magus needs to be interested in that mission, though I agree that Bonisagus doesn't give much benefit to this character type. Guernicus, on the other hand, fits well if you have some ability to either fight or investigate when called on to do so - there's still a fairly strong Terram tradition in the House.

Rego Crafters generally don't focus on specific spells - they want Arts for Spontaneous Magic, because Rego Craft spells are almost always very low level.

19

Hi,

Adding to that, craft magi have high Rego scores and often craft using spontaneous magic (Cautious with AL, etc), so the formulaic spells they take should leverage their strength in Rego and Finesse. School of Vilano combat (ReTe to fling things and bypass MR), teleportation (ReCo), aura of rightful authority (ReMe), etc.

Anyway,

Ken

20

A Vilano-trained Flambeau who just wants to make stuff, rather than specialize in combat like his parens wants?

21

Or a Vilano-trained Flambeau who, instead of tossing rocks at opponents, instantaneously builds about-to-collapse cathedrals around them. Equally effective at bypassing magic resistance, but far more stylish.

22

Note that Rego Corpus craft magic (aka "instant surgery") tends to be quite a bit higher - in the 25-30 range. But has the benefit of not needing to use vis, as opposed to its CrCo siblings.

23

I would be curious to see that construction of Spell which base of ReCo do you use ?
And by 25/30 you mean Spell level or finesse ?
I assumé like a Profession Craft you need your Chirurgy and medecin ability at 5 in order to do some good work.?

24

p103 of RoP: Faerie for the generic Faerie God Blood.

Fafner and Fasolt were the two giants who built Valhalla for Odin. So quite appropriate ancestor for a builder of great thing. It also comes with a nice background and possible story as Fafner killed is brother later on, and finally, consume by greed turned himself into a dragon hoarding treasures. So, if you take this blood, you know what's coming to your character if he starts to follow his ancestor's path :mrgreen:

For the explanation of the whole +4:

25

Magical Surgery is discussed in Arts&Acadame, on pg. 60. And basically - yeah, it's ReCo craft magic. The Finesse roll is Int+Finesse, equal to the surgical difficulty +3. (Of course, the surgical numbers are ALSO listed in A&A, on pg. 61 - so not much help for you.) The surgical difficulties are anywhere from 3 to 15, with most being in the 9-12 range.

The spells that go along with those rolls are anywhere from 5 (trivial surgery) to 15 (major surgery) to 25(life-saving surgery); you can also do DAMAGE with ReCo surgical magic, as well. For more information on ReCo guidelines for surgeries, see the Big List of Collected Spell Guidelines,at http://www.atlas-games.com/pdf_storage/ArM5Guidelines.pdf

26

It should be noted as well that ReCo surgery is not a way to instantly heal wounds, just to patch them and treat the wounds. Which compares to CrCo spells which boost recovery rolls already without Vis or the chance of injury...

27

I like these three options for healing:
CrCo non-ritual: increase drastically your chance of healing, without sequel, but take the same time as normal healing.
ReCo surgery: more or less instant healing, but with the same consequence as surgery.
CrCo ritual: almost instant healing (minus the ritual time).
You have three options: cheap, fast, without consequence. You can only pick two :smiley:.
Each as a trade off, nicely balanced.