ReVi range and target off the spell

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

I'm having some doubts in regard to the Range that a Rego Vim spell needs to have. (English is not my main language, sorry if i make any mistakes in the post.)

Maintaining the Demanding Spell says that you cast it on another spell that you have already casted, does the Touch Range in the spell requires that you touch the thing created/affected by the spell, or if i make a version were i cast it at the same time as the spell i will target (like a MuVi spell) Range: Touch will be enough even if the "target" is far away (like Jupiter's Tears Apprentices p.47).

Supressing the Wizard's Handwork Would i need to touch the thing created/affected by the spell?

Looking at The Patient Spell on MoH p.113 you cast the spell at the same time as another (much like a MuVi effect to my understanding) so Range: Touch should be sufficient.

Watching Ward Seems to be capable to "aim" the spells it holds even if the person to be affected was not present at the time the Ward was created (a PeCo that kills a person that steps in it). A Target: Individual Ward can be put in an item or object, an spell put in a Target: Room ward could touch anithing inside the Room. If i wanted to put a Ward in a painted circle on the ground should the Ward have Target: Ind and the spells it holds Target: Circle? If i put a spell that has Range: Sight on a Ward, would the Ward "aim" it for me or do i need to put a In(Fo) so the Ward can see the target of the spell.

On a related note, if i wanted to use spell on a target that has an active magical effect and my magic resistance blocked me from touching it, can i still use Range: Touch against him ?

2

Yes, there is room for confusion.

Your magus is not the Form of Vim, so ReVi can never be Personal range. However the base size of Vim is sort of "all around us"

IMS you are "touching" the energies of a spell as you cast it, and it travels outward.
So to use ReVi to modify the energies of a spell as you cast it, it is at Touch range.

Which can lead to oddities when to cast a Personal range spell on yourself, and then your ReVi needs to penetrate your Parma, because the original spell is not outside your Parma.

3

Actually,

The Individual target for a Vim spell can refer to either an individual spell, or an individ- ual object or person, and similarly for Group.

But your magus isn't the spell, so something that targets a spell specifically would not be your magus. So your statement holds if you modify the reason.

You're conflating ReVi and MuVi. You're answering for MuVi, while the question is about ReVi.

It does not appear to. If being sufficiently close enables Touch, then other magi should be able to use Touch MuVi on your magic in some circumstances, but they cannot. Meanwhile, you are connected to spells you're still controlling through Concentration. So Touch looks like it always works. On top of that, Maintaining the Demanding Spell does not place such a distance restriction on it. This, however, says nothing about effects outside of Concentration.

Having to actually touch the effect or object makes this useless in many circumstances it's supposed to be used for. This makes it look like Touch works on your spells regardless of distance. But everything in the spell suggests you're supposed to be local to the effect

So maybe we're at Touch works for nearby effects, and every Concentration effect remains connected to you and thus qualifies as nearby? It's certainly not clear, as these leave open the possibility that Touch works on everything non-Momentary you have cast, regardless of range.

This is just a non-Ritual Watching Ward. Yes, as the spells show, Touch is sufficient.

I don't like this to be able to hit just anyone or anything arbitrary later, as that gets really abusive with non-Ritual versions like The Patient Spell. I feel like it should have to be indicated when setting up the effect. But remember that the Target of de-novo creation is the thing being created, so there is less frequently an issue there. Overall, I prefer to require Intellego if the Target is not essentially at Touch to prevent such arbitrariness and the abuse attached to it. But this is all just how I feel rather than anything solid.

In a bit of weirdness, your MR stops things from touching you, not you from touching things. I say "weirdness" because in reality touching something is the same as being touched by that thing; they're two sides of the same thing.

4

Hum...
I may be wrong here, but I seem to recall that, to control a spell, you must be in range of it.

This is, obviously, different from maintaining Concentration duration, so even if I remember correctly, there's room for Original Research here (Yeah!)

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5

To make active changes to it, yes, you must be in range. But to maintain it through concentration, you don't.

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6

We agree then :slight_smile:

I am happy, because I am alway looking for new ideas of Original Research, and what spells you could develop that would thematically fit the theme.

Developing Concentration spells in order to create a breakthrough where you can control out of range D:Conc spells is something that would never have occurred to me, so thanks :slight_smile:

7

Why would touch always work for concentration spells? Neither the specifics of D: Concentration, nor R: Touch, nor of Vim spells support that.

More than it not being clear, I feel like going from touch to near is stretching it too far (small pun intended).

Why would it need to? It is already implied by R: Touch. Many other touch spells don't specify a range in the spell description, simply because it is not needed. Here, we just infer that the magus needs to touch the target of the other spell for MDS to work.

No, it makes it look like a R:Voice Supressing the Wizard's Handwork is sometimes more useful than a R:Touch one.

8

Because you can't touch a spell, and this is designed to affect a spell, not the target of a spell? For example, how are you saying these effects (ReVi maintaining Concentration) work if a person has several Concentration effects on their mind at once?

So you're saying the example use of avoiding interacting with a Watching Ward is using Touch to interact with it? If it were only the stone example, that could make sense. But that you're supposed to be able to avoid Watching Ward with this when you're saying you're going to give Watching Ward every possible chance to go off first seems rather contradictory, no?

9

You said it yourself:

It seems to me that the intent is that ReVi spells can affect a spell upon a target if you can target said target (horrible phrase, but you get it).

As for ReVi to keep concentration of multiple spells, wouldn't it work as long as the spell is cast at T: Group (up to 10 spells, of course)?

What I'm saying is that a magus that casts a Watching Ward that triggers on touch would use a R: Voice version of SWH.

Also, "being touched" is a specific trigger. I don't see a reason to assume that it would be the most common one, and indeed, from the "standard" version of SWH being R: Touch I would say that it is likely to be the least common one.

10

No, not really. There is the issue of the number that you mention. There can also be an issue of distinguishment. Unless we make the magic intelligent so it knows which ones are yours and which are identical from someone else, or similar.

11

No, the spell would just work if the target is valid. Of course, there is the point of distinguishing it... But can you even affect a target that you can't perceive, for starters? No, you can't.

So, let's say you have four concentration spells, one MuCo(An) to transform a man into a newt and another, InMe, to read his thoughts, both cast by you. You also have a CrIg to make him glow and a CrMe to make him sad, cast by a friend.

You can perceive the effects of the MuCo(An) spell and the CrIg one. I think it's fair to say you can also perceive your own InMe spell. However, even if you know your friend has cast a CrMe, you can't detect it without InVi or something like Magic Sensitivity. Therefore, you can touch the person and target any of the three spells you can perceive.

Of course, only two of these are spells that you have cast, so only two are valid targets for the versions of MDS and SWH presented on the corebook. If you try to maintain/suppress your friend's spell you will fail. If your version of MDS can target spells cast by another you can target any of the three. If you have a group version of it, you can target all, barring level restrictions.

12

So how do you perceive the spell active on the person to target it with this spell? How does someone just perceive a telekinesis spell on a rock? Perceiving the rock, sure, but you're targeting the spell.

How so? Because you're concentrating on it and that gives you a connection to it?

13

It does require some level of abstraction, but I see no problem with it. If you'd rather require an InVi spell to perceive any kind of active magic, that's your call.

Not an Intangible Tunnel to it, mind you.

14

That's the same level of abstraction you're objecting to, probably more so. I've played in games that allow Touch but still require some InVi or Magic Sensitivity or similar.

Why more so? If you've got Concentration on a distant spell, not matter how distant, you are able to stop it or maintain it from wherever you are. Knowing that, is it unreasonable to say you could maintain it using the spell-mechanic equivalent to the item mechanic for maintaining Concentration? Or do you say an item that maintains Concentration loses concentration if the target moves too far away?

15

An item maintaining concentration is mechanically equivalent to a magus maintaining concentration on a spell. MDS uses a different mechanic to achieve a different, but similar effect. And no, I'm not suggesting that either a magus or an item loses concentration if the target moves away. I can't say how you are reading that from my words.

The matter of detecting an active spell it's an interesting discussion in itself, but let's leave it aside for a bit and assume that a magus can detect the magic somehow.

You are proposing that if you have cast a spell and are concentrating on it you can target it at R: Touch through the connection between you and the spell. To back this claim you posit:

  1. If being sufficiently close enables Touch, then other magi should be able to use Touch MuVi on your magic in some circumstances, but they cannot
  2. you are connected to spells you're still controlling through Concentration
    2.a So Touch looks like it always works
  3. On top of that, Maintaining the Demanding Spell does not place such a distance restriction on it.

However:
#1 MuVi spells operate under their own set of restrictions. It's hard to extend their reasoning to anything outside themselves. This doesn't make a strong argument on itself (it might supplement other points, however).
#2 is not wrong. But 2.a is a logical leap that just doesn't follow.
#3 is your own interpretation, that can't really be backed by the rules except by assuming that your initial point is true, which would make this a circular reasoning.

There is nothing on the rules about Touch or Concentration themselves to support your claim. And while it's possible that you can indeed target a spell through this concentration link, this isn't a small thing. I can't help but think that if this was meant to be, it would be clearly stated in the rules.

Just by virtue of a link existing isn't enough. There is a link between you and your familiar, and one between you and your talisman, but you can't target them at touch through this link.

16

That is incorrect. The user must concentrate to control the effect, not the item. It's just that the item can maintain the user's concentration, not its own concentration. It's a magical effect maintaining concentration for the user, just like MtDS is a magical effect maintaining concentration for the user. Here is the specific rule

you can arrange to have the device maintain concentration on the effect for the wielder...Note that the wielder still needs to concentrate to change how the effect is used.

So, again, why can an item with a Touch Range effect pick up your concentration on that effect on something really far away? Why doesn't the item need a longer Range? If the item doesn't need that longer Range, why does MtDS?

Yes, I get that my interpretation isn't rock solid. But I'm not contradicting core statements like this to make my case, either, am I?

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17

I wanted to address this separately for clarity. You're going backward with the implied logic here. You're right that MuVi obey different rules so it's hard to extend them outward, but only in one direction. Let's look more carefully:

That's because MuVi spells are more forgiving on targeting to make them work, not less forgiving. They allow for targeting beyond what normal Hermetic magic can manage. So something even their targeting cannot manage (Touching a spell itself) is definitely outside the bounds of ReVi, since they have more expansive targeting than does ReVi.

Also, since MuVi are more expansive on targeting, then if ReVi can manage so can MuVi. The converse, if MuVi can target it then so can ReVi, is not necessarily true; but that's also not what I was arguing.

18

The problem is this. Maybe I'm nitpicking, but MtDS doesn't concentrate on the spell for the caster. It just maintains the spell. Re-reading, it's possible that this is the same as an item keeping concentration (albeit it seems that MtDS doesn't require the caster to concentrate on sunrise/sunset, in the case you have a D:Moon or higher version of it).

However, can the item really pick up your concentration on something far away? It starts concentrating at the same moment the effect is activated. This is something closer to the OP's original question (can you cast MtDS at touch range on the same moment you cast a spell?), in my understanding. The item is not concentrating after the spell was cast.

The problem with your interpretation is that it requires a whole new set of unspoken rules about concentration to be true, while they don't need to be true at all for the RAW to work.

19

Yup. Did you try the analysis on what you said:

  1. You contradicted a statement in the core rules on items maintaining concentration, though now you're looking at an alternative.
  2. You're working off the assumption that ReVi targeting is more expansive than MuVi, while we know for sure the reverse is true. David specifically said we have to add some leeway to MuVi targeting to allow Muvi to work.
  3. You're were assuming ways of sensing magic that are not necessarily there. (Though you've stepped back from this.)
  4. You're essentially assuming touching something that is touching an effect (like a spell acting on someone's mind) counts as touching that effect without having backed up how Touch can work this way and without getting past not being able to actually touch a spell.

I don't disagree with most of your worries about my position. But to paraphrase this with yours:

The problem with your interpretation is that it requires breaking rules (at least targeting, and maybe item concentration) in the core book, so your interpretation needs to not be true for the RAW to work.

That doesn't say my interpretation is correct. But I'm waiting to hear one that doesn't actually break these rules. With inductive reasoning, this is how you rule out interpretations. When they violate what you have, you throw them out; if they don't violate anything, they might be right or wrong.

20

Which statement? I said an item is analogous to a magus keeping concentration, and that MtDS uses something different... albeit there are indeed, more similarities than I first assumed.

Can you point me to this discussion? My reading on that part of MuVi was always the opposite: you can generally target spells with R: Touch, except for MuVi where you can only do so if it's your spell. From the MuVi Guidelines box:

Touch range is sufficient to affect your own spells, but Voice range, at least, is needed to affect another magus’s casting. You cannot touch the spell itself.

The way it's written implies that you cannot touch a spell being cast by another magus, not spells in general. I found nothing else in the core book that seems to impose a limit on which range can target a spell.

I didn't step back, I just like to discuss one thing at a time. We will come back to this later. ; ]
But I agree that I was making assumptions that might not be true.

Well, here we reach a weird place. By your reasoning we can't really use Mentem spells with R:Touch since you can't physically touch the mind. A few other spells also get weird (such as Masking the Odor of Magic). At the same time, we are reaching the point of discussing the metaphysical inner workings of magic with regards to targeting and to what actually is a spell. If spells really can't be touched at all, the discussion is moot, of course. If they can, then there is some discussion as to what is considered to be "touching" a spell. I've always gone by the most direct interpretation: touching the target of the effect suffices (some arbitration might be needed in a few corner cases).