Ritual Spells vs/as Formulaic Spells

There has been plenty of discussion on whether Ritual spells are Formulaic spells or not in the past. I would like to collect everything that is relevant. There is a good chance this won't solve the issue at all, though perhaps we'll find an answer. But it should allow SG's to see how their choice interacts with other parts of the system.

As a definition for Formulaic magic, the description includes Ritual spells. This strongly implies Rituals spells are Formulaic spells.

As such use of parentheses should be able to be removed without disturbing the meaning since the contents are there for clarification, this strongly suggests Ritual spells, as a subset of spells, are either Spontaneous (which we know they aren't) or Formulaic. Otherwise it should be written more like "when casting either Spontaneous or Formulaic spells..." with no change in word count. But this is not really definitive, especially since these parentheses are not used with similar wording elsewhere.

If Ritual spells are not a subset of Formulaic spells, then the last sentence is superfluous. This very weakly suggests Ritual spells are Formulaic spells.

This implies nothing about Ritual spells. However, the decision determines whether or not Life Boost applies to Ritual spells.

This implies nothing about Ritual spells on its own. However, as it is essentially the opposite of Poor Formulaic Magic it would seem like it should not apply to Ritual spells, weakly suggesting Ritual spells are not Formulaic. Regardless, the decision determines whether or not Method Caster applies to Ritual spells.

This implies nothing about Ritual spells directly. However, it does apply to Rituals spells, and it is a little odd for it to be the reverse of Cautious Sorcerer and have only one apply to Ritual spells. This adds a little weight to Cautious Sorcerer's suggestion that Ritual spells are Formulaic spells.

If Ritual spells are not a subset of Formulaic spells, then the last sentence is superfluous. This very weakly suggests Ritual spells are Formulaic spells.

This is actually suggestive in both directions. Ugh! Since Ritual spells are penalized, they seem to be a subset of the Formulaic spells that are difficult. However, Formulaic spells are cast as Ritual spells, so Ritual spells should be unchanged if they are Formulaic spells, yet they are changed.

It doesn't say they are any sort of subset of Formulaic spells, just like Formulaic spells. This is highly suggestive that they are two separate things because of the styling of the wording. Usually a word like "other" would be used in this phrase if Ritual spells were a subset of Formulaic spells, such as "house cats are like other felids" instead of "house cats are like felids." However, this is not definitive since we have logical situations like any given figure being both similar and congruent to itself.

This doesn't really suggest anything either way. It could be that a subset of Formulaic spells is excluded, or it could be that only two of the three sets of spells are included.

If Ritual spells are Formulaic spells, there is no need to say "and Ritual." This is suggestive that Ritual spells are not Formulaic spells.

There is no mention of Ritual spells. That Spontaneous spells are not Formulaic spells and are specifically mentioned as not needing casting tools is suggestive that Ritual spells are Formulaic spells, but this is not necessarily implied. Note that if Ritual spells are not Formulaic spells, then casting tools are not needed for Ritual spells.

First Ritual spells are separated from Formulaic spells. Then three things Ritual spells can do are disallowed for Formulaic spells. This strongly implies Rituals spells are not Formulaic spells.

Many Ritual spells are stated as being outside of the formulaic spell category. This strongly implies Rituals spells are not Formulaic spells.

You missed a couple.

p114 and p115 of the core rulebook both make reference to ritual spells (in convenient headings, no less) and in both cases talk about spontaneous and formulaic spells as if they are something that ritual spells are not.

p114:
"Ritual spells take longer to cast than formulaic spells."
"Formulaic and spontaneous spells may not ..."

p115:
"Spells requiring rituals are those that fall outside the categories listed for formulaic and spontaneous spells described under 'Ritual Spells' on p114."

Formulaic magic is a term defined in the Glossary on ArM5 p. 8. The definition is:

Hence the ArM5 authors defined Formulaic magic in a way to include Ritual magic. This has never been errataed.

The definitions of the central glossary (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary) should be respected in any series of texts that refer to it - like in our case in all books referring to the ArM5 Core Book. It is, however, understandable if in some phrases out of some 35 or so ArM5 books this is not the case.

Cheers

I know I'm new here, but it's my opinion that Formulaic spells encompass Ritual spells. Both have formulae that the maga already knows, with the difference being the amount of time it takes to cast one or the other. Normal Formulaic spells are quick, while Ritual spells take 15 minutes per magnitude to cast.

Unless I'm missing something here? I'm trying to get up to speed with the system, and the only way I learn is to open my trap and hope for the best!

Well, time and vis. Vis is a very important ingredient.

But yeah, I'm in the "Formulaic includes Ritual" camp as well. The "this is literally the glossary's definition" argument was very persuasive.

Thanks, Kid Gloves & One Shot. That's why I posted now. There are so many instances that it's easy to miss a bunch of them. I'll add those to the OP tonight. I still have to do things like check MoH for certain relevant Virtues/Flaws and see if those characters have casting scores or similar things like in the Verditius chapter of HoH:MC that mean a decision was made and published.

Welcome.

Some are of that opinion and some are of the opinion that they're two separate things. Both camps can cite the core ArM5 text to make statements supporting their view. As this has come up a few times - one of them not long ago - I thought I would try to collect all of the citations in one spot. I figure we won't get a definitive answer. But at least we'll know all the arguments either way and what the implications are.

To add a bit more context:

From my observation, treating Ritual spells as a subset of Formulaic spells seems to be by far the most common approach. Not universal, as callen points out, but certainly the majority.

I've never played in or run a game where Ritual is not a subset of Formulaic, but that doesn't necessarily mean a group playing the other way is necessarily wrong. The most important rule is that everyone has fun, after all. :slight_smile:

I could not agree more. Well said, good sir!

So what are the rules implications of saying that formulaic doesn't include ritual?

From what I see on the list above so far:

  • Cautious Sorcerer would not apply to Ritual spells.
  • Life Boost would not apply to Ritual spells.
  • Method Caster would not apply to Ritual spells.
  • Verditius magi would not need casting tools for Ritual spells (which also means Enchant Casting Tools doesn't work).