Rock of Viscid Clay and other Muto for easier Rego Craft magic

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

Should suitable muto magic cast on raw materials lower the ease factors for rego craft finesse rolls?

Making a statue from clay seems easier than making it from marble, at the very least one has a better chance to fix mistakes, which should in turn make it easier to produce high quality work. Rock of Viscid Clay is just one of many spells that could make life a lot easier for craftspeople working with stone and other hard materials. More generally, muto spells could give them the option to tune their raw materials properties to make them easy to work with.

You could make extremely intricate and near perfect wood joints with clay-like wood. You could perhaps even turn wood into water or water-like wood and let it fill a mould to make furniture. You could certainly do that with any metal, alternatively turning it into mercury perhaps, if you need high surface tension. Perhaps you can avoid a craft roll entirely sometimes, for example by turning the iron / steel in a bloom into oil and the slag into water with two muto spells.
But lots of materials have internal structure that is highly relevant for its applications, e.g. you can't make a usable sword by casting liquid metal and it matters how you align the grain of wood.

So I'd be inclined to reduce ease factors, but to really understand the potential and limits of this approach I need a better understanding of how muto works.

How do changes applied to a muto'ed bit of matter affect what you get when the spell ends?

Tentatively, I'd say materials without an inherent shape (dirt, clay, stone, metal, glass, gemstone, liquids, maybe wood) keep the shape they had when under the influence of the spell. (Let's ignore possible volume changes for now and focus on shape.)

The chief example is Rock of Viscid Clay which is very explicit in that it allows rock to be "manipulated in the same way that hard river clay can be.". Although it does not explicitly say that the rock keeps its form after the spell ends, it seems to be heavily implied by the comparison to clay.

Other core spells that possibly support this interpretation are Supple Iron and Rigid Rope (make stiff things flexible and flexible things stiff) and Pass the Unyielding Portal (make wood pliable).

On the other hand, Cloak of Mist or Transform to Water clearly work differently, as you become a slightly cohesive Auram or Aquam individual and turn back into a Corpus individual, without having to adopt a shape that exactly matches that of your body.

You also turn back into a human after having been turned into an animal, but if you lost a paw, you probably have only one hand now. I remember a discussion about turning people into glass or dust and what happens if you get scattered into the wind, but couldn't find it again.

How do you handle these kinds of muto-situations?

2

I did this in a game once. It's beyond the scope of what you want, but it's also an applied example of turning something to clay to craft it. Procedurally doing it is easier than lumping it in an effect.

MuTe 30
The Persona's Talisman
R: Per, D: Mom, T: Part
Req: Re, In, Me, He, Vi

This effect temporarily transforms part of the Talisman into clay that may easily be molded into a new shape. This power affects the stone, metal and wooden components of the Talisman. While in clay form, the talisman magically reshapes itself with a rego requisite, tapping into the owner's current persona with an intellego mentem requisite in order to change the Talisman into a new form. Once the Talisman has been reshaped into a form specific to that Persona, it will always reshape itself into that form for the given Persona in the future.
The talisman reshaping itself counts as craft magic and requires a Per+Fin roll with a DC equal to 3 + the number of components in the Talisman, due to the relative ease of shaping clay. A failure on the Finesse check means an error in reshaping has been made with one or more of the components that will reduce part of the bonus lent by the Talisman in its new form until the caster realizes the mistake and spends some time to activate the effect again to fix it. The Finesse check is normally rolled once when an initial shape is given for a Persona's version of the Talisman, unless the owner is trying to fix a defect or a new component has been added into the Talisman via the Great Talisman mystery.
This power may be used to make cosmetic changes to a Talisman, just as it may be used to craft a Talisman with a completely different shape. Talisman attunements for a given shape are only available to the owner when the Talisman is in the appropriate shape. Enchantments that were created using a bonus to the lab total from a shape may be deactivated if the new shape of the Talisman does not confer an appropriate shape bonus to compensate. Smart enchanters think ahead.

Base 2, +2 metal, +1 part, +5 requisites
Effect level 30, usable once per day

1 Like
3

My mage designed a similar effect to craft structure made of animal bone. It is a Re(Mu)An. Muto is a requisit that adds flexibility to the material to be temporarily bent and shaped for optimal crafting. It is more to allow the crafting of normally impossible item to craft through normal means: fusing bones together to create larger structure like bone-beams.

In this case, it does not lower the Finesse roll EF - at least, it is how we adjudicate the case.

4

Regarding the metal slag analogy I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what slag is. Slag is metal, just the portion of the metal with a lot of impurities in it, which may be either physical or chemical depending on the situation (and generally a fair amount of lime that was used for flux to ensure the impurities wound up in the slag instead of the iron). I would suggest simply having a single muto spell to torn iron into water and then strain out everything else instead of trying to get fancy with the whole oil/water idea. For one thing while oil and water may not mix, oil and limestone are easier to separate.

5

There sort of are two different ways that you can use Muto spells to aid in a crafting (referring to normal crafting rather than Rego magic here).

First, you can make a job easier (I turned the granite slabs into clay making it easy to mold them. I transformed the steel ingots to be as malleable as hot steel without requiring temperature changes.) I would generally consider this equivalent to superior tools. (I believe C&G has rules for that? I don’t have the book handy.)

Second, you could do Impossible Crafts ™. (I have poured emerald into this mold and made a sword of gem. I turned wood into paint and make a fresco mural of woodgrain. Metal and stone and wood are twined around each other into a single awesome staff.) These I would not allow any bonus to do their work, but would allow them to do impossible things.

6

Check out the lower table on HoH:S p62. It gives bonuses & penalties to the Finesse roll “to create, craft, or simulate objects.”

To get a +0 bonus one of the examples is “…are used to perform any Ability in which the character has a score of 1 or more.”

The +3 bonus includes “…are used to perform any Ability in which the character has a score of 5 or more.”

It’s not called out, but by elimination if you have a score of 0 in the Ability you’re using Finesse for you’ll be at a -3 penalty. That’s in addition to the base -3 penalty for it being Craft Magic and any penalties for how much you’re cutting down on the crafting time. This is significant.

If you Muto the raw materials for your Craft Magic into something that you have a Craft Ability for, you’ll have a lower ease factor. (My Verditius has a stonework Craft Magic spell that Muto’s the stone into glass because he’s a glassworker.)

Conversely, if you Muto marble into clay for your Craft Magic and you have Craft Statue you may or may not have a bonus or penalty: does your Craft Statue background include sculpting from clay? Or have you been defining it as stonecarving from marble, for example? Sculpting things from clay and marble are two completely different skills.

That is basically part of the grabbag of things that come with the Verditius Magic free virtue for the House. Since it takes more work to take advantage of that House Virtue than something like a free Focus or Heartbeast or Faerie Magic etc., I’d be wary of making it trivial for any magi to do the same thing.

7

Big fan of the “Turn a stone to water, pour it into a mold, let it turn back to stone, now I have a wall and all it took was a lot of grogs with buckets” approach to things. It doesn’t even necessarily feel that game-breaky/like a way to get around Rego Craft - you’re just shifting the crafting from “How good is that wall you made” to “How good is the mold you made.” (and “did you properly build it to anchor properly into the ground and not immediately fall over? You’re stacking the walls into a tower - did you consider weight distribution and properly brace it using the vault with the rude name?” and similar considerations.) That’s still a Craft: Mason roll - a different technique, but the same end goal. I would allow it to speed up the time but not the quality.

I imagine it’s a bit like Brutalism, in that it’s (relatively) easy to “Just pour some concrete into a mold and stack it in the trendy part of town”, but it takes a skilled architect to make that look good.

This is especially true when you get into @raccoonmask’s “Painting with woodgrain” style examples - that just feels properly mythic, like Dwarfs making a chain from the sound of a cat’s footfalls. Mages filling their entry halls with impossible art, for the sake of it, feels right. (But it would still require Craft: Fresco or it would look interesting-but-bad)

2 Likes
8

Also wait

I have poured emerald into this mold and made a sword of gem

How BIG is that gem??

9

I though that, if it is only a Mu spell and some character must use his craft ability in it, the only change is the time to the finished work, for me it would be the time needed to finish the work of the material the spell is simulating.

For specific Re spells that use Mu as a requisite, as long as the spell is not general (ex. must craft only chairs - like the mold idea), I would allow the change in time (with Finesse modifier change) and a bonus equal to the spell magnitude.

Although higher magnitude spells receive more bonus, the Finesse check would be much more difficult to accomplish, in my view.

1 Like
10

About sword big. Making a sword is a great use of the Arkenstone….

(Probably conjured with magic, but could also be handled by a large group of gems fused together when they’re water.)

1 Like
11

If you are converting them to water, it could be multiple stones. In fact, given the way gems are priced buying small stones and then pouring them together into bigger stones could be a source of income on its own. Of course, if you go with the idea that gemstones reproduce sexually in the depths of the earth that could get very strange and awkward…

2 Likes
12

Given that gems reproduce sexually (as we all know) and therefore grow from “child” to “mature adult”, it seems that it would be easy enough to adapt the guidelines for bringing a plant or animal to maturity to gemstones. I’m sure swapping out “He” for “Te” at a one to one ratio will be all that is needed, and there will be no explosions in my lab.

(And then they rolled for experimentation)

4 Likes
13

Seems like there is general agreement about how muto works in these applications. You get the shape you have when the spell ends and the material is not super scrambled or something like that, e.g. you still get the woodgrain fresco, not sawdust. (Though I might allow "atomic mixing" e.g. for making alloys from mixing two liquids if the spell is supposed to enable it.)

For rulings on rego craft benefits I like @raccoonmask‘s idea of distinguishing Accelerated Procedures and Impossible Craft™.

I think a bonus equivalent to superior tools is reasonable as blanket policy if you want to keep it simple (I guess you were thinking of workshop innovation at +3). Though sometimes switching craft (clay vs marble) seems so advantageous that I'd just allow using the EF and durations for that craft, which might end up being equivalent to +6. For Impossible Crafts™ I might just allow cool ideas like the bone beam or gem sword to use a normal EF. I also like the woodgrain fresto adjudication.

I think @PinkOpaque's examples are cool in general. Brutalism and concrete are really good analogies here if we do want to go for some complexity! I might want to play a rego craft specialist so I'd probably enjoy having more to play with here…

Technically some of the accelerated procedures you and @raccoonmask describe (love the cold forging) are kind of "unnatural", i.e. a craftsperson would have to deviate from their normal procedures. How does that work with hermetic magic?

A spell cannot invent new procedures that no one has ever done, right? Which begs the question of what happens if someone invents a new mundane way to do something somewhere in ME? How does this technological advancement "connect" to the spell? Do you have to have seen an example of the result without knowing that it was made in an unusual way?

@silveroak’s point about slag also shows that devil is in the details of natural philosophy, not just hermetic magic. While I thought slag is not metal but mostly silicon and calcium oxides, at least for modern processes, it probably doesn't make sense to discuss the physical details of most crafting applications. After all, for most if not all medieval applications one is a layperson, our physics may or may not be applicable, and on top of that the details of how muto works on the "atomic" level are probably best left unspecified anyway.

So how could a slightly more in-depth approach look like without violating hermetic paradigms and modest historical accuracy?

I’d agree that both for some Accelerated Procedures and some Impossible Craft cases a craft ability should be required. It's quite similar to piecing rego craft spells together instead of doing it in one go to reduce the EF (which many have argued before requires actual knowledge).
But for many muto-rego-craft ideas you'd probably need not just knowledge but true innovation and trial and error. Maybe one could adopt the rules about Formulae from A&A for allowing greater benefits from unnatural procedures like "aquam concrete" moulds?

1 Like
14

It’s not called out, but by elimination if you have a score of 0 in the Ability you’re using Finesse for you’ll be at a -3 penalty. That’s in addition to the base -3 penalty for it being Craft Magic and any penalties for how much you’re cutting down on the crafting time. This is significant.

I think there are many things the typical magus will be familiar with (General knowledge +0) due to area lore 1 and/or weekly encounters, no?. Not sure how often you'd want to make something that's not covered by this and would require 1 in a specific Ability, but it is of course highly dependent on what your maga wants to do. Though maybe you meant you require all of the points on the list in HoH:S for avoiding the -3 on Finesse in your saga?

On that note, I actually would expect the +3 bonus to be available for most rego craft Finesse rolls, because with creo you can always get a functional (normal quality) model to work from without a Finesse roll. Or would you deem that cheesy? (and if so, based on what in-game justification?)

15

…a craftsperson would have to deviate from their normal procedures. How does that work with hermetic magic?

In Hermetic Projects, we see an enchanted sail that increases wind speed for use in sailing.

ReAu 14 (Embiggen Wind)…An unfamiliar sailor or captain suffers a –1 penalty to any ship handling rolls for the first season working with the device, but once familiarized, he gains a +2 bonus to any sailing rolls and totals for speed.

p.70

I don’t think (I was skimmning, valar morghulis) it gives a length of time for said familiarization, but I feel like “A season” is a reasonable timeframe, a la the rules for a squad of grogs training together. I would assume that if you’re bringing in a Master Glassblower and making him use the collection of Enchanted Glassblowing tools (don’t ask what happened to the last guy who worked here) he could familiarize himself fairly quickly, so if you had four enchanted objects you wouldn’t need to wait a whole year, but if you introduce a radical new thing there’ll be a -1 for unfamiliarity (mostly countermanded by the extant bonuses.)

16

To use Creo magic you have to be familiar with the simile of the thing that you are creating. That is where the Area Lores apply.

Rego Craft magic is different; it can “do anything a mundane artist could do with tools” (HoH:S p60). You need to know what the mundane artist does with tools, so here the “…are used to perform any Ability” criteria apply. You are not creating an object de novo, you’re actually doing the work to make the object (in an instant). Just being familiar with an Area Lore isn’t enough; you need to know how to make it.

Furthermore, there’s a bit of a question about the clause at the end of the Creo Magic heading on HoH:S p60: “When creating artificial objects, the same level of Finesse is required as when using Rego to make them from raw materials.” I think that means that the ease factor to add details to an otherwise functional object should be the same as for Rego Craft magic… but the latter has some hefty ease factor penalties for how long it would take for a mundane crafter and that does not seem consistent with, say, The Mystic Tower. It might also imply that simply being familiar with the object through an Area Lore isn’t sufficient. I think that whole sentence is open to interpretation, though.

You are conflating Creo magic vs Rego Craft magic. Creo magic “always makes a functional version of that object.” Rego Craft magic does not; if you fail your Rego Craft Finesse roll your item doesn’t work. For Craft magic the Finesse roll is just to add details.

Moreover, even with Creo magic you won’t always get the +3 Finesse bonus unless (1) you have a model, (2) you encounter it on a daily basis, (3) common in an area you have Area Lore 3+, (4) uncommon in an area you have Area Lore 5+, or (5) you know it intimately for reasons. The item you create with Creo magic will still be functional, but may not be pretty.

17

The outcome of the spell is most important. The moment a spell is a kill spell, such as turning a person to sand and the sand does not stay together as a cohesive unit, it’s a Perdo spell with a muto requisite. You could argue it is a Muto spell with a Perdo requisite, but it makes no meaningful difference. This question had been skipped, so I thought I’d answer. It may be worth spawning a different discussion thread for this topic if people want to go further?

Regarding crafting, as others have mentioned, giving bonuses seems reasonable. Crafting is a tricky topic, because I think the game designers did not want to remove the need for mundane craftsmen. That’s why there needs to be quite high, often 15+ to rego craft decent items quickly. They did not want a magi getting some fabric, and making perfectly tailored clothes, having a servant bring over some raw meat and veg and they magic up a meal, etc.

Saying that, there is a level of weaselly optimisation one can do with crafting. There are big penalties for speed crafting, but one can keep casting until a magi gets a good roll. “But the resources are destroyed”, I hear you say. Good point. I am glad you asked.

I would imagine most covenants have multiple inlaid casting circles. If they don’t, make one. Do the rego casting in the circle. If the roll is bad cast an all {wood/brass/iron/whatever} in the circle turns to water. You’ve got your metal ingot, wooden plank molds, etc. Resources not wasted. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle centuries early.

1 Like
18

I love the idea of the new guy nervously asking the impatient magus showing him around “one last question, about the previous master of glass ..”! :grin:

But I’m actually wondering about spells doing work a mundane craftsman could do in theory but that never has actually been done by anyone because the procedure requires new insight or muto magic.

Imagine there are two ways to make a knife, one takes two days and is known, the other one day but it is unknown. The knives look exactly the same. One day someone somewhere invents the second way. Does the magus suddenly find it’s easier to make knifes (no +3 to the EF anymore for duration) with rego terram? Would he have to see a quickly made knife first? Would he have to know it was made quicker? What if the fast way depends on muto and a smith would be able to do it after some getting used to, but there is no smith who has actually done it. Is the spell easier anyway?

Hm, I never considered that this might be necessary. In Covenants and other places the quote is:

Rego magic can make any change a mundane craftsman can effect, even when the magus is limited by lack of tools, time, or skill.

But I fully agree that the rego craft rules are a bit confusing and in places inconsistent. There have been many threads on this forum (including more than one about the Mystic Tower) and I found this one to be among the most helpful to wrap my head around things.

What I meant was that you can often use creo to get yourself a temporary model to work from for the permanent rego object. For example, you have seen a cool piece of glassware in Venice two years ago and have some glass ready to try and reproduce it. Instead of going for rego straight away, you make it with creo from nothing first.

HoH:S p61:
A character using Creo magic need not roll Finesse unless he desires the finished product to be of a quality higher than that represented by an Ease Factor of 9 on the following table.

So now you have a normal quality example of the glassware you want, i.e. you have a model for getting +3 for the rego finesse check (+3: Magi have deep familiarity with the similes of things that… …they possess, and use as models.).

Or at least this is how someone might argue and I’m wondering about a fair ruling as SG.

19

True, I think that at least one AM author has explicitly said something along these lines. Personally, I think both sides of the argument are reasonable preferences for a saga. Though people have pointed out that a magus can easily outclass mundane experts in social, combat, stealth and many other settings, possibly all of them at the same time, so why should crafting be different? In any case, I have a stubborn preference for (weaselly) working within the system, so I like thinking about things like this muto-rego-craft approach.

Big fan of inlaid casting circles! (Or ones made from clay with creo and diameter duration.) You can save so many magnitudes by avoiding group and size modifiers it’s a no-brainer if you’re not in a hurry.

But I hadn’t thought of using muto to reclaim wasted resources, smart!

20

No lie I’m obsessed with this as a story seed. One day, a Verditius doing her morning set up discovers that it’s way easier to make The Daily Knife, and she realizes two things. One: Somewhere in Mythic Europe, there’s a knifesmith who’s made a breakthrough. Two: She might be the first one in the Order to realize this. She scrambles to go questing for this Inventive Knifesmith to recruit him as a forge companion before anyone else can get to him.

4 Likes