Hello everyone!
Here’s the situation: I have a rune mage character who has joined the Order of Hermes. What Integrations can a rune mage utilize based on Hermetic Magic?
Here is what I’ve come up with so far:
Familiars (Minor);
Adding Craft: Runes to Lab Totals and Shape/Material Bonuses to Casting Totals; the ability to use laboratories for additional bonuses (using Verditius Magic as the source) (Major);
Spontaneous Runes (Major);
Ability to combine runes to produce more diverse effects (Minor);
Extracting Vis from Magical Auras (Minor);
Additional Magic Resistance (Major);
Warping reduction via formulaic scripts specially prepared for the individual (other than the mage themselves) (Minor);
Although their Rune Magic ability is described similarly to a [Hedge Magic] Theory it actually lacks any clause identifying it as equivalent to a [Hedge Magic] Theory such as, for example, Pictish has for Gruagachan.
In the absence of a [Hedge Magic] Theory the only Integration that a hedge magician can attempt is the invention of a [Hedge Magic] Theory -- see HMRE p16, under the heading "Integration by Hedge Wizard Researchers."
If you houserule that the Rune Magic ability is a [Hedge Magic] Theory, or once someone has developed a Rune Magic Theory then other Integrations become possible. Note that having a [Hedge Magic] Theory allows the hedge wizard to receive bonuses from their laboratory (see "Hermetic Use of Hedge Theory sidebar on the same page).
Personally, I would not include "Warping reduction .. for the individual" as a potential Integration from Hermetic magic; that is not something that Hermetic magic can do. And if "additional Magic Resistance" looks anything like the Parma Magica, that is a Hermetic breakthrough.
Given that both Rune Magic and [Hedge Magic] Theory are Arcane abilities described in almost exactly the same terms, that the Viktir tradition is definitely not a "technically naive" tradition (see the description of [Hedge Magic] Theory, and most crucially that Rune Magic already adds to all Lab Totals exactly as a Hedge Magic Theory ability would, I assume (note: this is interpretation, not houseruling) that Rune Magic is the {Hedge Magic] Theory ability for rune magicians. Thus, among other things, I assume a viktir cannot invent a new [Rune Magic] Theory and add both Rune Magic and [Rune Magic} Theory to his lab total.
I agree with you. I consider Rune Magic to be, in fact, [Hedge Magic] Theory for rune mages.
And so far, there has been little discussion regarding the possibilities of integrating Hermetic Magic into Rune Magic.
Eh, I feel that it's a weak argument to worry about ending up adding two Abilities to Lab Totals if its both Rune Magic + Rune Magic Theory after Integration. Learned Magicians add Artes Liberales to their Lab Totals and would be in the same situation from Integrating a [Hedge Magic] Theory. The fact that Rune Magic is described exactly how I'd expect a [Hedge Magic] Theory would be described is what gives me pause. But as written, it's not.
In terms of moving forward with Integrations (however we arrive at that point), I'd focus on one Minor Breakthrough at a time. Remember, it needs double the breakthrough points that Hermetic Magic Theory requires. It won't go fast.
Work with someone who has Hermetic Magic Theory to provide Insights -- you can add their Int bonus to your Insight rolls; you don't get that working from texts or items. And train an apprentice to get them working on the same Breakthrough (you can pool the breakthrough points); with multiple researchers your progress will go much faster.
I'm not familiar enough with rune magic to know where its weakness is; I've been looking at Learned Magicians (who desperately need an Intellego-equivalent). So, where's the weakness in rune magic?
@Hyalus I understand that you don't consider Rune Magic to be the [Hedge Magic] Theory equivalent for Rune Magic, but that isn't the point of this post—nor is the question of how the research mechanics described in the Ars Magica Definitive Edition work (I was already familiar with them from True Lineages). Let’s proceed from the premise that Rune Magic is the [Hedge Magic] Theory equivalent for Rune Magic (which is how it's treated at the tables I play at) or that it has already been developed.
My question is: what can Hermetic Magic contribute to Rune Magic in terms of description (fluff) and rules (crunch)? Here is what I’ve come up with so far:
Familiars (Minor): Might require a physical object to represent the pact with the familiar, with the Lab Total influenced by one or two runes;
Adding Craft: Runes to Lab Totals and Shape/Material Bonuses to Casting Totals; the ability to use laboratories for additional bonuses (Major): Utilizing Verditius Magic and the inherent nature of Hermetic Magic regarding item enchantment;
Spontaneous Runes (Major): There is already a precedent for this in one of the books, hehehe;
Ability to combine runes to produce more diverse effects (Minor): I have some doubts about this one, but the idea is to expand rune "functionality" through combination—open to suggestions on how to do this;
Extracting Vis from Magical Auras (Minor): Very interesting for Rune Mages;
Additional Magic Resistance (Major): This is intended to make runes function like Hermetic Forms, providing Soak/Resistance bonuses against their areas of influence, as well as extra Magic Resistance that stacks with Parma Magica;
Warping reduction via formulaic scripts specially prepared for the individual (other than the mage themselves) (Minor): Hermetic Magic can cause less Warping (similar to how it affects the mage themselves) when a formulaic spell, ritual, or enchanted item is crafted specifically for a given person; Rune Magic lacks this feature (only the mage themselves benefits from it).
What other ideas do you think could be integrated?
A key weakness of theirs is the large number of runes they have, so I think grouping their runes into smaller groups (like the ones suggested as focus) could work.
Adding Craft: Runes to Lab Totals and Shape/Material Bonuses to Casting Totals; the ability to use laboratories for additional bonuses (Major): Utilizing Verditius Magic and the inherent nature of Hermetic Magic regarding item enchantment;
This might have an echo in Potent Magic, as a source of insight.
You are coming at it backwards. It would not be what Hermetic things could be integrated into Rune Magic, that would produce a growing group that is largely incompatible with the rest of the Order that gains their advantages and contributes little to the knowledge pool. They would also not be able to use most of that knowledge pool.
No, the first generations are about integrating their magic into Hermetic Theory. At least to the point where they can function Hermetically to the same extend as Verditius or Ex Miscellanea. By somewhere between the third and fifth generation, the apprentices are going to be very much like an Ex Misc in their build.
A HUGE weakness for Rune Mages is that all of their stuff is an Arcane Connection to them while also (generally) loudly announcing who made each thing - for this reason, they have to be very circumspect with their magic and can't share them too widely, even though they rival and in some cases exceed Hermetic magic item capacity. I'm lookin' at you, healing rings.
My (non-canon, speculative) theory on how this works is as follows:
Just as Hermetic Magic requires Vis to make things "Real", Rune Magic is only "Real" while it has a power source, or what I'm calling a Continuity Source. This is perhaps The Gift of the Rune Mage, but it seems odd that a single Gifted Individual could technically power a nearly-unlimited number of effects. My speculation is that Rune Magic is tied to some Otherworld source, flowing from the Otherworld into ours via the Vitkir, or perhaps given His involvement, it's Ultimate Source --> Odin --> Vitkir --> Effects.
So to me, a big thing that Rune Mages could learn from Hermetic Mages would be some way to transfer the reigns of their runes to something else. I have some options here:
Transferring the Continuity Source of a Rune Charm to Vis. This could be an all-at-once (with the amount of vis to make the magic item "permanent" roughly equal to the amount of Vis it would take to make a comparable Hermetic magic item) or perhaps it would need to be "fed" with a certain amount of Vis over time, the magic flickering out if you don't offer X Pawns every ?season? or so.
Transferring the Continuity Source of a Rune Charm to some process. Merinita magic already has "Fire" as a duration, and there are other "While" durations in the Deeper Mysteries, not to mention "Storm" in Atlantean magic. If a Vitkir could integrate some of these durations, it might allow them to transfer that Continuity to this other thing, making the charm far less volatile. Sure, you might need to hire someone to maintain a bunch of fires for each charm, but it's far less immediately precarious if an enemy gets a hold of it.
Transferring the Continuity Source of a Rune Charm to a spirit, as in Hermetic Spirit Magic. It seems quite in line with these people who have learned Odin's charms to find ways to put the Runes in His hands, or perhaps in other Faerie or Magical beings willing (or coerced) to carry that. This reduces the Vitkir's danger, while a magical being may be either weak enough to be forced to take it on, or powerful enough to see greater benefits from the relationship.
The base ability to transfer a Rune to something would be a Major Breakthrough, as it expands the capacity of rune magic exponentially, however, afterwards it might be a Minor Breakthrough to add new durations.
Familiars imo are at least major, especially considering they grant a form of Magic Resistance.
Adding Craft: Runes to Lab Totals and Shape/Material Bonuses to Casting Totals; the ability to use laboratories for additional bonuses (using Verditius Magic as the source) (Major);
Spontaneous Runes (Major);
Ability to combine runes to produce more diverse effects (Minor);
Extracting Vis from Magical Auras (Minor);
Looks good- I am not sure lattermost would be minor but that's for debate.
Additional Magic Resistance (Major);
Warping reduction via formulaic scripts specially prepared for the individual (other than the mage themselves) (Minor);
The former should at least be hermetic, unless you argue Algiz Perth can already do it. Latter looks good.
As for additional suggestions- doing runic enchanted devices sounds fun and might lack ACs to the creator as the device is the "caster". Making rituals a formal aspect of rune magic sounds interesting. Adding RDTs would allow for variations of how long runes last or how large their effect radius is. Breaking down runes into more broad abilities so there's less to learn could be revolutionary for a magus' lineage.
Re: Extracting Vis from Magical Auras (Minor or Major)?
This does seem borderline. On the one hand, a Personal Vis Source is a Minor, and it feels odd that a breakthrough that you must devote season work to would be a Major compared to something you get for free as a Minor.
On the flip side, it's something that Vitikr straight up cannot do right now, in any way, meaning it would be integrating something from one tradition to another, which is usually Major. Also, it counts as a Major Virtue for an Elementalist with no skill in Refining to get their Vis Extraction skill. I would vote Major for this, especially if they get a little bit of a fun perk to it. Maybe it's One Ninth instead of One Tenth in their extraction formula, because that's the Allfather's favorite number. Or, maybe they can incorporate some sort of sacrificial component to boost their totals, an echo of offerings of old.
I don't think that because a virtue is minor, the related breakthrough should necessarily be minor.
If something is currently impossible for them (I didn't remember vitkir not being able to extract vis but my last time reading that chapter was last year and I never used what Iread since) it may be major or "hermetic" if it broke one of their limit.
They already are- any enchanted devices a magician makes lasts at least a few weeks unless its a charged device.
If we're talking about them being permanent ACs in the same manner as runes- I'd say no? At least for me, having a forever AC to me in such an accessible form would outweigh any benefit.
Each rune script includes the vitki's name. This is why the runes of rune magic are an arcane connection to the vitki, as is anything summoned by a rune spell. This is a strong theme with the vitkir and I don't see why enchanted items should be any different.
I don't see why this would "outweigh any benefit". It's a feature of rune magic. You have to be just as careful with items as with spells.
The second argument is balancing. Hermetic magic is overall more powerful while hedge traditions excel in specific areas. By enchanting items, rune magic is encroaching on Hermetic territory, and I'd want to keep it less powerful if I allowed it.
Independent of that, there is a second balancing concern: Rune magic can cause lasting changes that would require a ritual in Hermetic magic. Hermetic items cannot do (most) ritual effects, so there should be careful consideration within the troupe whether to allow vitkir to create items with ritual effects.
Because the viktar is not the caster. Beyond that enchanted devices in general disentangle the effect from the creator- an intangible tunnel in the form of a device for example is only usable to that device.
Well its simple- an item that is forever an enchanted device, even when the effect itself is inactive, is even more of a risk than with spells. A rune can just be scratched out later- a runic item is effectively permanently an AC to you even if you wished otherwise and aren't using an effect.
Beyond that though there's already precedence- enchantment runes rules in Ancient Magic. There's no given stipulation the device is an AC to the hermetic. There is a general stipulation the rune is an AC to the caster, but in this case that would be the device since its generally treated as the caster for the sake of effects- hence there's already an example of runic magic not doing that. One could argue hermetic runic magic is not true runic magic ofc, but it shares many of the limitations.
I'd have to ask "how does this encroach in the territory of hermetics"? Enchanted runes don't really add that much that really seems to give the viktars much tangible weight. Their magic is already close to effectively permanent if they wanted to. They often hand runes to others already. The only arguement I can see is the rune can be activated independently which... doesn't seem to strengthen viktars that much to me.
I mean- this isn't a device issue. This is a base casting issue. Beyond that though its very limited- I think its pretty much mostly reconstruction of objects and animals from an AC? They can't permanently boost characteristics, create things without an AC, create multiple instances of a single thing since they're creating that specific thing alone and so forth. I am of the opinion if it isn't ritual for viktar runes, it shouldn't be ritual for viktar devices.
Regardless we can look to another case study for this- the sahirs. The sahirs are capable of doing things permanently that requires rituals for hermetics like momentarily creating lasting memories, emotions, energy(if a hermetic breaks the limit of energy) and so forth. There's no indication given these normally-ritual effects are treated as ritual effects for the sake of their bindings.
the elder runes from Verditius share many similarities with the runes of vitkir (like being the same names, symbols etc.), and the items with them have not indefinite AC towards their creators iirc.
