Seasonal Activities and Advancement

Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: Base Camp
141

You mean "your standard interpretation" - fine by me. I can see it either way.

But in answer to your question (which I thought I had covered above...)

...I'll quickly walk you through my thoughts, so you're more familiar with it next time you do encounter it.

First, it clearly is abstracted - the rules say as much.

"...A normal character must work for two seasons, and gets two seasons "free". However, he cannot leave his job for two seasons, as the free time is spread out over the year..." (emphasis added)
So the average Craftsman must spend the equiv of half their time ("2 seasons") at their job if they want to earn a living, but has the equiv of half to do "other stuff".

Now - are there any limits on that "other stuff?"... YES! This "Free time" is further limited in the very next sentence...

"Thus, he can only undertake study that he could do in and between his job." (emphasis added)
So, as a grog/grog-leader, Theo could spend his evenings studying from a text or practicing Singing, but he could not claim the entire season to go Tanas to be Trained by a Songmaker (other "jobs" might work differently, not his).

(* IC considerations could arise here to create extreme exceptions - we're not going to worry about those.)

The very next sentence after that is...

"The two seasons spent working generate Exposure experience..."
This is the default, but is not a further limiter. It is listed specifically to establish the baseline, but I don't see any "only" or "must" in that sentence (as is found in the previous sentence!), only that these seasons do, inarguably, generate Exposure (as do most any season), if that's what the character wants and if that's all they can get. Combined with the previous sentence, I don't see it as precluding other activities - the previous sentence does that. What this last sentence does is suggest what the default is for the typical character working the typical craft - which a grog is not.

A grog* is not doing "a craft", unlike most of the population of Mythic Europe. They do "stuff" - guard duty, odd jobs, loaf about if they can, avoid they magi as best they can, go on adventures, heal up - they're grogs, not peasants, that's why they have a different (free) Social Virtue. And unlike most peasants, they enjoy a salary - as long as they're on the payroll, they get paid.

(* Here, "grog" = warrior/grunt/redshirt, as opposed to some other "covenfolk" whose jobs are specifically based on one or more production-based "Crafts", such as The Cook or The Blacksmith, who more probably have a daily production quota which they must meet or they are obviously not "doing their job".)

Once a character is free from the "Must craft full time to earn money" treadmill, Practice can be very similar to "work" on its face (that is, to superiors who judge if a grog is "doing their job") - the difference (as I said above) is two-fold - 1) that it does not generate an equal end-product, and 2) it is insufficient to "earn a living" - but that may not be a problem for a grog in a Covenant situation. (In fact, any peasant who isn't in financial need could take a season of "practice" in their Craft and still contribute (less) to their finances.)

That, in a nutshell, is how I came to that standard interpretation of that section. (And I won't presume to project that interpretation on the author(s) - as I said, I can see it either way.)

142

No, I most definitely don't mean mine--I mean the.

I do not want an argument. I do not want to read your explanation. I am tired of lengthy arguments over trivial crap that's already well-settled.

Scott

143

Oh - can you point me to this clarification? thx. Always good to be aware when my interpretation is not canon.

And you're not getting one...

I was not aware that this had been hashed over before, sorry.

As to your reaction to my explanation (odd that you call it "an explanation first, and "an argument" later) - I thought you invited me to explain my interpretation...

It's not "an argument", it's a different point of view.

Without an exchange of different views, "we" (you, me, the other players here) won't find common ground nearly as easily or quickly.

As for "trivial" - I might normally agree, but you brought it up to the Troupe, and as a Troupe member I responded. That's how I do things.

If Troupe input, or just my input, is not welcome, then say so, so I'll know that this is less Troupe-run and more unilateral, and I'll know you expect us (or just me) to just shut up and accept every ruling you send down the pipe.

Because that's one reading of your last - just in the spirit of communication.

And - to be clear - that's fine too - just let me know and make it clear.

Otherwise, I'll reserve discussing rules for the main Forum, and ignore any future "trivial crap", no problem at all. Some people enjoy kicking around different ideas (even trivial ones), others don't. Now I know your preference.

144

In this particular case, the text is so blindingly clear that I am, honestly, astounded that you could read it any other way. I am pretty sure that there's no official clarification, because there's just no other way to read it.

That being said, no matter how loopy I think your interpretation is, I'd be willing to hear you out, all other things being equal. However, my patience at this point has been tried by your constantly wanting to have drawn-out debates. Even when I hint that I don't want a debate, for example by giving a curt answer that sidesteps the argument, I get another two-page post in response. I literally don't have time to read two-pages posts in which you elaborate in detail your position on something that was decided years ago. I don't have time to be writing this current post, either. I value your input, but I'd like to see you contribute in places where it truly makes a difference to our enjoyment of the game. If you've got a point that's truly important, make it--concisely--and if the rest of us don't agree, then drop it and move on.

In this particular case, you topped things off by telling me what I meant to say. No matter whether or not you agreed with what I said, it was pretty obvious that I meant it, and I don't appreciate being told I meant something other than what I actually meant, even out of some misguided attempt to be "polite" by presenting a clear disagreement as being something else.

In short, I want to play the fg game, not talk about or debate the fg game. There are times when we have to debate rules or the like, but I'd rather minimize the effort put into that. Can we please just do that?

Scott

145

Thoughts on Viola's advancement:

  • Is Constantine really going to be capable of setting up a lab? Whilst he's got the Magic Theory, he's also a butterfly with no powers to manipulate objects. I can see that he's got the "Feet to Hands" and the "Make him 10 times bigger" bond powers, but that's still only going to take him to size -9 and a strength of -19.
  • I think the Rego Summa should give +20 xp, rather than +31 - probably just a typo, especially as the total is then correct.
  • Where are Viola's living quarters at this point?
  • I think the xp Constantine is getting from training should be 8 rather than 11 (source quality is eleven, but there's an 8 (might) -5 (familiar HR) = 3 point penalty to what he can learn).
  • When is her current character sheet "as at"? She already seems to have 56xp in faerie lore, but not sure if that's because the advancement is wrong or because it's reiterating the arrival season of advancement which has already been applied.
146

I'm happy for one of the Practice Single Weapon seasons to go - I can't remember my thought processes at the time (although at a guess, that the time spent practicing teaching was specifically for the covenant's benefit, or that I just forgot about that rule).

Pick a base ease factor from the Creo Corpus guidelines, and cast it at Moon duration, Touch range. Recovery rolls are at month intervals, and he'll need 3 successful ones to be completely well, so ideally it would need casting at least 3 times (and possibly more, depending on how his recovery rolls go), although the ease factors for recovery get easier as he gets better.

147

It's actually Petrus, the herbalist, who's sick, rather than Theodoric (and yes, with Pithisis, i.e. Consumption/TB, not Phimosis). He breathed in some of the putrid breath from a patient, causing his own humours to go putrid.

148

I thought about that, but he can get mundane servants to help him move things into place, and then he can make the proper adjustments. I figure if he can't manage that, he wouldn't be a very useful lab assistant in the first place.

Yeah, that's just at typo--31 was the previous total.

In the main temple on the first level of the regio--there are evidently no fae there, so it should work fine for the purpose, except for the heating problem posed by the open room. That's something she needs to fix as soon as she can collect the necessary Creo vis to enchant the whole structure with magical heating.

Heh, you made this same comment the last time. :slight_smile: The extra +3 is from the quill (I originally had that at +2, but then I noticed that the appropriate section on lab magic items in Covenants suggest a specialization bonus of +1 per 10 levels of enchantment).

I hadn't realized I posted a sheet with those 5 XP's added, but yes, you appear to be right.

Scott

149

Salutor, I know you did the grogs' advancement in one big block. Could you post it to the "Covenfolk Character Sheets" thread? I'd do it myself, but I want us both to be able to edit it.

Scott

150

Ugh, I'm not sure how this should work--and I see you did the same thing for some of the other covenfolk as well.

It is possible (and I'm aware this was the point CH was trying to make when I cut him off) that someone who's on the payroll full-time could be paid to Practice. I think that violates the letter of the rules ("The two seasons spent working generate Exposure experience" is pretty cut-and-dried), but it's not unreasonable in principle.

The hitch is that, from the perspective of running the covenant, these guys are supposed to be doing something else. Arguably, in the first few years, they need to be doing more than usual, such as helping dig the quarry and reconstruct the buildings (and because of his experience at the latter, Theodoric is somewhat useful in that effort). Normally, if covenfolk are allowed to spend extra time training, certain things are not going to get done.

In this case, given the absence of several of the starting member magi, it's plausible that the grogs have more spare time than they should, but I'm not sure the necessity for guard duty and the like really depends on the number of magi. I don't want to go back and change everything, though, so let's leave things like they are, but try to avoid doing this in the future, except when the covenant is willing to free up one or two covenfolk at a time to train for some special need. (And given that grog seasons are abstracted over the course of the year, in practice that should mean only one or two grogs get this bonus each year--at most.)

Does that sound reasonable?

I suppose we could allow for grogs to take the 5 XP for a short adventure in lieu of one season of Exposure, since the adventure takes place on the job. That's bending the rules a little bit, and I'm not sure about it, since it's supposed to take the rest of the (abstracted, in this case) season to "consolidate" the learning from the adventure, but it's essentially the same principle applied for pre-saga advancement for magi. What do the rest of you think?

OK, this is slightly complicated, so let me do it when I get some time later tonight.

Scott

151

Give the grogs the default according to the strict core rules. Don't worry the details for minor characters.

If the covenant wants more "oomph" or expertise in a subject area then perhaps that is the purview of a companion class character, or the covenant needs to grow to support more people.

In previous sagas I didn't even bother with grog XP except as an annual maintenance task. They are furniture.

152

I think I need more information here: I need to know what kind of wound the disease produced. I assume that Phthisis is mentioned in Art & Academe, but diseases come in different strengths, and I'm not sure what strength this one was.

Out of curiosity, how did we decide he was exposed to a disease? And when did it happen? If it takes long enough to recover, it'll cut one of his seasonal activities.

Scott

153

Never mind, I just dug out Art & Academe, and I should be able to work it out.

Scott

154

OK, if I'm reading this right, the Severity has no impact on recovery except when medicine is used--it doesn't affect the use of Hermetic magic.

For Phthisis (which causes a tragic shortage of vowels), the Stable Ease Factor is 9, the Improvement Ease Factor is 18, and in Interval is Month. Petrus has a Sta of +1, and, if I'm reading the Recovery Modifiers table right, the covenant's +2 Living Conditions modifier should translate into a +1 Recovery modifier (since it's equivalent to wealthy living conditions), provided Petrus rests. I don't think there are any other modifiers.

If we cast the spell in the lower level of the temple regio (I seem to recall earlier tonight thinking we wanted a faerie rather than magic aura for some reason), Viola's casting total is Sta +2 + Cr 5 x 2 (Potent Spontaneous Magic) + Co 7 + aura 5 = 24. Let's try a ceremonial casting, which will add Artes Liberales 3 and Philosophiae 2, for a new total of 29.

Moon duration adds 3 magnitudes, and Touch range adds 1. If we use the base of 15, for a +18 recovery modifier, that's Level 35.

So....here goes nothing:

Viola's roll: (29 + stress die 4) /2 = 17
invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4478691/

Let's see, she missed by 18 levels, which means 4 extra Fatigue levels, for a total of 5, which is Unconscious...so, 2 hours on the floor, and then I think 4 more hours to recover completely. He'd better recover (and if he does, this will increase the covenfolks' Prevailing Loyalty).

Now a special Weird Magic die: 3
invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4478702/

Nothing special, but the room does smell strongly of violets.

Now then, let's see if Petrus can do his end:

Sta 0 + 1 Recovery Modifier +18 CrCo modifier + stress die 9 = 28
invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4478704/

So, Petrus recovers after the first month. Or should he roll twice, since he wouldn't have symptoms during the incubation period, and therefore wouldn't benefit from magic for the whole month, and would even keep on working?

Scott

155

I think the Loyalty point gain here would be 12, since the disease, at severity 17, is equivalent to an Incapacitating Wound.

Scott

156

Ack, screwed that up: I forgot we needed multiple improvements.

OK, the first month improves Petrus from Major to Serious.

Let's try this again the next month. Viola's roll:
(29 + stress die 8) /2 = 19
invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4478765/

So...still unconscious. I suppose she could have added Loud Words and Exaggerated Gestures, but who can keep that kind of thing up for nearly two hours?

Weird Magic roll: 4
invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4478778/

Petrus' roll:
19 + stress die 3 = 22
invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4478769/

That takes the disease to Minor.

Now, one more casting from Viola:
(29 + stress die 3)/ 2 =16
invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4478773/

Unconscious once again, but successful.

Weird Magic: 0
invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4478781/
Would somoene like to suggest an appropriate effect?

Petrus' roll:
22 + stress die 0 = 22, assuming no botch
invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4478783/

I'm not really sure how many stress dice to roll, so here are three, which should give an extra or two:
2, 2, 1
invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4478792/

So, no botch unless 3 dice weren't enough. And that cures him, after a full season...meaning we need to take one season off his advancement.

Oh, and I believe that the Prevailing Loyalty modifier would go by the disease penalty, rather than the Severity--that would make it a +9.

Scott

157

+1

There are only 2 situations (that spring to mind) that a grog should be able to slide on their "full time" duties - 1) if given special permission to (whether given specific time off, or special allowance to "practice" rather than giving 100% to their assignment for the season), or 2) when they take it upon themselves without permission to do so. (This latter would (should?) be sparked either by something like a Trait roll or something like the "Difficult Underlings" flaw, or perhaps(?) a failed Loyalty check.)

I can see situations when, for instance, having a bunch of grogs practicing weapons is close enough to having them "on standby" for the season, etc. etc., depending on the perceived need, that they can adequately do their job and stray from the "full time" standard.

mmmm - I think grogs are semi-NPC's, and they don't need their own "adventures", nor do they need to (nor have a reason/excuse to) advance as fast as Companion or magi.

158

Petrus needs to gain a minor flaw from warping - suggestions?

159

Bleh, I forgot about Warping....I really should do that whole thing again, because I don't think Viola would want him warped if she could help it, and the +12 from a level 25 effect would be enough to heal him--it would just take a little longer.

BTW, when and how did this disease happen?

Scott

160

It's fallout from the trip to the village to heal the son of your guide for the horse hunting adventure - Tasia took Petrus to examine him, and he picked up the illness himself.