Shadows can be very dangerous...

My 2cents:

Were cold is the lack of heat, shadow is not the lack of light (which is... unseenable)...To have shadows, we must have light. Without light, no species, and shadows is a kind of species. So i would say shadows are imaginem as they are visual faded species or "normal species not enough illuminated"...

I find the focus interesting, but targeting shadow would mean transform "species" in something real.
So i would say: ok but need Mu with at least touch sense affected by the species. And for the complexity of the thing, a +3 or +4 regoterram requisite, because "shadow comes to live".
So the spell for "transform the shadow into a giant" would be some kind of Mu(Re)Im(Te). The baseguidelin would either be Muto 1 (change 1 sense i think) or Rego 4 (or 5) "move dirt in a unnatural way". Then add the +3 or +4 complexity magnitude, and i would say the base is some kind of +-20. That would be ok for a so nice concept.
It would be a good for a focus magus and magus formulaic-ing it, but not a "spontaneaousable one".
As for the damage, i would say: attack roll is finess of the magus (+ bonus from the size of the shadow^^) and damage are +10+5*size of the shadow

Exar, without books so no checks.

Your game comes first. I'd allow him to target Ig, personally, and to create shadows with PeIg, destroy them with CrIg, and control or change them with ReIg or MuIg; not overly consistent, but it seems most appropriate to me. What you could consider, however, is to keep these effects slightly non-Hermetic - to say that the magus' unique magic allows him to target shadows, while normal Hermetic magi still cannot.

I would allow the spell that creates the creature to have a Penetration that applies. In your case, the lowest of the MuIg(Te) and PeIg effects, since both create the stony creature. Again, probably not strictly RAW.

As for damage inflicted, I'll look up an earth elemental's damage, for an elemental with the same size, and perhaps lower it slightly.

No, perfectly fine if you read it as written. First im responding to the fact that your statement is incorrect by the same standards you apply yourself. THEN i ALSO add that the concept itself is broken for the time in question.
Two different and unrelated objections.

And no i dont consider it "valid in canon", in fact from all i have read i simply cant consider it anything but the opposite.

Based on how some arts are stretched to include things that would otherwise be hard to include in any art, i think its a rather good assumption to make.

Ah... And exactly HOW do you KNOW that? And since the fact is that you ARE controlling them by controlling them indirectly, even if true, such an inability to target them becomes irrelevant.
You´re still affecting light or heat(by preventing or reducing its presence) anyway. The only exception becomes the absolute zero point in either case. And thats not something i expect to ever be something we need bothering with. Nor of course is it even suitable for the timeline.
Suitable for the timeline however, IS to affect cold and shadows as "targets".

Except being able to exchange fatigue without anything else means fatigue IS being targeted. Lack of ability to manipulate it is another matter.

Eh... hehe... I think you mean CrCo(as you´re improving something) or MuCo(unnatural change!) rather...

Oh i know. But IF you were to state restrictions against Cold and Shadow, then these other things would also be affected by such a rule change. Otherwise you would have to state exceptions and exceptions to the exceptions.
Or start making up new reasons for having several new Hermetic Limitations. Limits that will both feel and be very arbitrary and artificial, because in many ways, thats what they would be.

Anyway, the important part is really that "in character", shadows and cold is something that CAN be targeted, and by the definitions of the magic system, they fall under Ignem.

Species cannot be transformed into a physical form, according to HoH:S, Jerbiton chapter. So MuIm is right out, barring a minor breakthrough.

But whatever fits the game, as always. Just stay consistent within the saga.

Oooooh that's right.

It gets worse.

As mentionned before, shadows are an object's aspect when not "excited" by light (which produces species). Thus, they can be created and affected indirectly by affecting light, but that's all: You can alter light so as to produce shadows, not create shadows under the light, and a focus in Shadows (darkness) is in fact akin to a focus in light, only with PeIg effects instead of CrIg effects (both have ReIg and all, that's just the main difference).

To answer to Exarkun, we CAN have shadows without light. It's just that they're everywhere, and thus undistinguishable from each other. Total darkness is just everything being non-excited by light, thus everything being black.

For "scientific" reasons related to invisibility, it has become my belief that a non-excited object emits species (yes, I'm changing my PoW since my earlier post). Black species, which are shadows. This explain the various states of darkness, as a patch of ground is more or less excited by light, and thus more or less dark. The black color is just something that either can't be excited, or lacks other kind of species generators. Something which lacks species generator (like air) is just invisible.
Thus, shadows can be produced and controlled by both Ignem (by affecting light) or imaginem (by creating black species). But they can't be affected by Muto.

To have this "non-excited" state move and take form is ludicrous, since it's just an object's non-excited appearance: Shadows have no reality "per se". It'd be just like saying that an item's invisibility can take a form and attack you.

Even if we say Shadows are not black species, it gets harder to manipulate, since they become akin to how we consider someone's looks, and it'd be like having someone's skin color take a third dimension and attack things.

Does this means such effects are impossible? No. You just gotta think outside the box.
Have a PeIg spell (or a PeCo spell, or...) designed just as normal, and then have the special effect be "the character's shadow comes to life and strikes him with its icy touch (PeIg) / Inflicts terrible wounds (PeCo)". Just like a CrIg spell can be a conflagration, a fireball, a flame arrow... This has the nice effect of being perfectly RAW, and solving your damage question.
Of course, your player won't be able to apply his focus to it (unless you're the kind of GM who applies wolf focus to wolf-shaped fireballs). Is it really a problem? It is (or should be) a minor focus, after all. And has this is a simpler effect, with less requisites and all, he may not be a loser after all.
You should look at Magi of Hermes, also, as one magus there has a very similar focus (darkness).

Nothing stops you to later introduct "living shadows", on which his focus will be usable, but these won't be your normal shadows, will require either a breakthrough or a virtue, and will be summoned by Rego.

And a wrong one.

I seem to recall it is stated somewhere that hermetic magic isn't universal, and can't affect everything, which is one of the interests of seekers of knowledge: to perfect Hermetic Theory.
Even then, there are some things it can't affect. Like Time (which exists in ME). And maybe humors. And mutoing Species. And Regio. There are things in all "non-hermetic magic" supplements that can't be affected, or at least easily, by hermetic magic.

Note also that being able to affect something indirectly does not mean you can affect it entirely, shadows and species being a good exemple of it.

Meh, I think that's over-thinking it.

In modern understanding, shadows are not "things", but an observed effect, specifically a lack of light. It's like silence, or hunger - it's the absence (or absence of intensity) of something, in this case "light".

But, in a very real sense, in game terms shadows are things. There are stories of them having a will of their own, grabbing ankles, leaving an "owner" (or wanting to), etc etc. And this is not explained by "excited species".

I still think they're Ignem far, far more than Imagonem, but I also think there's something more going on there, even if that "something" is not Hermetic.

Can you say which page/title? it's very interesting, thanks.

This thread is very interesting! So my two cents:

In a medieval paradigm, every object of the Earth (and the earth itself) emits iconic species. Without them, they would be invisible, like the air is. So, in an example, if a magus is standing at the sun by the morning, the sun emits iconic species, but so the magus!. Evidently, the iconic species emitted by the sun are greatly affected by the "light" property, so they are brillant (as the magus could testify). We could generalize then without much difficulty that every heated object emits lighted, iconic species. But what happens if there is a mirror or reflected water?. The iconic species must hit the surface of the mirror, but something more also happens: the "brilliant" property is transmitted to the mirror, and the mirror not only is illuminated, but the iconic species emitted by him adquire the same "illuminated" property, in a determinated angle. But what happens to the magus? the iconic species of the sun hit him, but the property "brightness" is absorbed by his body. The iconic species he emits are normal. The earth under his feet emits species, too, but the patch of his "shadow" doesn´t get (or absorb) any "brightness" of the sun, because the magus did so. So you have simply a patch of earth with the form of the magus, that emits "brightnessless" species (at least, less bright that the iconic species of the sun!). That would be a medieval shadow, i think.

But what is darkness? is it a 5th element? we suppose not. To make my point clearer, imagine we have a crystal orb, and a bonisagus investigating the nature of darkness, cast a PeIg spell to the inside of the orb (to make darkness, for example, duration day). so we have an orb with a three - dimensional darkness inside it! (to speak in modern terminology :stuck_out_tongue:). But, what is inside the orb? Ignem? not. Terram? neither. Yep, Auram! there is "only" air, an air that was invisble till it started to emit very brightless species induced by the spell. If it wasn´t so, we couldn´t see nothing at all inside the orb. (Or making a room dark would be impossible). You are simply, "obscuring" the air. So, if you want to make a shadow that tries to kill someone, you could do it, for example, with a Muto Auram spell (to make the air solid and with an evil conscience) with a Perdo Ignem and Terram requisite (to make the air a source of coldness and darkness, having "black" air). You target the form of the shadow of the victim, and invoke the evil, airy spirit of darkness that will try to suffocate him in cool ways. And voila!

EDIT: An additional note, the spell would need the special target: Shadow to be effective, but i would put it in a Mystery Cult, or ExMisc Tradition, or secret lineage, together with the focus).

Hope it helps!

(Marciano: "and voilà", that made me think about Doctor Who... (i'm currently watching the extra episodes after season 4...).

And, as like to say the doctor: Allons y!)

Wow, that is really interesting. I'll try to remember that, I happen to play in two different sagas two very different magi, but both somewhat interested in Imaginem.

Hehe, thinking of it, have you ever wondered why the invisibility spell leaves a shadow? It´s because, although the spell eliminates the iconic species you emanate, you continue absorbing the "brightness" of whatever source of light you are in (leaving the shadow behind as i explained). A Jerbiton expert could investigate it further; for example, with a mirror. Let´s think in crystal... does it leave a shadow? Nope!. At much, it could give strange reflections of light behind it, but if you can imagine a perfect crystal... it would be effectively invisible (without shadow and reflections). Why? Because, the crystal, not only does not generate iconic species, but the only way of this behaviour is that he is also a perfect transmisor of all the properties of the iconic species that touch it!. Not only the brightness, but the colour and the form are transmitted. A jerbiton could realize it through multiple mirror experiments. Also, if you put a slab of wood behind one of its faces, you could see your own reflection, because it transmits all the properties back and forth, with the wood absorbing nothing. So we could conclude that the crystal have a property called "transparency"; that of not emitting iconic species and transmiting the properties of those that hit it. And that isn´t a property of Terram, as one could argue; Perdo Imagonem makes half its effect, and water (and other smooth surfaces, also evidently air) have it too.

So in conclusion, adding a Muto requisite (to transform your image acquiring the unnatural property of transparence) to Perdo Imagonem, and +1 or +2 magnitudes for complexity / flexibility, you could have the true invisibility spell. Although the question now would be: what would happen if you look to your "reflexion" in a mirror? :stuck_out_tongue:.

HoH:S, page 63, first column, last paragraph.

I would not go for a so easy solution.

IMO, the only way to become REALLY invisible is on base of the guidelines PeCo 40 "destroy one property of a person" and to chose "consistency". So you become "intangible" and so don't cast shadows... the base level 40 justify to reserve to it the "true" invisibility spell.

Forgot to mention, but i think the research to correct the spell (everything i´ve explained so far) would require a Minor Breakthrough, to acquire the knowledge and test it. I would think that losing consistency would mean that you become really intangible (none could touch or sense you), making an effect really powerful :slight_smile:.

The intended object of this group of spells seems to be to create an arbitrary area of unexcited species and physical force. Destroying the excitement characteristic of species using PeIg would create darkness within the space, but the targets, being so highly arbitrary, would require finesse and complexity, and, while the canonical darkness spells don't have it, you would almost certainly need an Im requisite, as you are not affecting a fire or source of light, you are affecting a fiery attribute of species. It would be easier, I think, just to destroy all species coming through the space with PeIm--I think this would end up having the same effect in regards to darkness and impenetrability (though it would react differently to spells intended to see in darkness, as there are no species whatsoever to perceive). Muto could offer an interesting alternative wherein species are suppressed in an area and darkness is perceived only within it--the space appearing lighted to those outside. In any event, species cannot be changed into physical force, and there is nothing in the canonical physics that would allow the manipulation of shadows as anything other than a matter of species.

One could perhaps achieve the same end by just creating black shapes and using Auram to create force inside of them--the goal does not seem to be the manipulation of shadows (which are not realia) so much as it is the creation of black shapes with real force which could then be called 'shadows,' but not have any natural force or character. Any 'period' effects with 'shadows' manipulating things are almost certainly demonic or magical effects disguised as shadows.

But an assumption nonetheless, and as pointed out above, a wrong one. Hermetic magic is not universal and it certainly does not affect everything in the world.

"Light and heat also fall within the domain of this Form. It's important to remember that heat also includes relative absence of heat, so spells that result in cold temperatures are possible through Ignem." (ArM p. 139)
"Level 10: Destroy one aspect of fire (for example, heat or light)." (ArM p. 142)
As one examines the example Ignem spells in the book, it is clear that HEAT can be targeted by Ignem, as Light can. DARKNESS and COLD, cannot. It is quite simple really, you just need to drop your usual antagonistic personality and actually examine what people say in logical terms, instead of what you think might be best.
Targeting heat or light does not equal targeting cold or darkness, no matter how much you wish it to.

Wrong. The bodily energy is being transfered, not fatigue, as you can read on page 134.

No, I don't mean either, I mean exactly what I said. I did not say improve, I said remove.

Rule change? I think not. Cold and darkness not being able to be targeted is pretty clear in the rules as written.

Except the earlier above claim is incorrect afaik.
Time is one of the special limits so doesnt count.
Humours are indirectly affected.
Mutoing species i dont know where he got as i dont know any limits on that based on the description of MuIm.
And regios, well thats like saying that oh dear i cant make the earth into a rubber ball, how terrible...

It IS made to be as universal as possible.

Thank you very much mr Yan, you just created the reasoning for a new killerspell against magi.
As by your definition its impossible to ward against cold, there will also never be any Form resistance against it.
:unamused:

And if you stopped for a second and used your mind you might even figure out why going by your line makes the system as a whole crash and burn because you forcibly introduce non-logical restrictions.
Logic is the very reason i think your argument sucks.

Come back and lecture me about logic when you can score above 191 on IQ-tests, as the very reason i score high is because i excel exceptionally at the logic and language parts.

ONCE AGAIN shall we? Controlling the exact amout of heat within a locality is fine by you, but once the abitrary way of measuring those degrees goes into the realm of "cold" then suddenly we can no longer target the exact sane heat within the exact same locality?
So then, when does Ignem fail to control "cold"? At 5C or 10F? At 0C or 0F? Oh i forget, those didnt exist in medieval times. And this IS the logical extension of your argumentation.
And its totally insane to try and use.

:laughing:
So you base the argument on the GAME TERM difference?

Riiight... Directly adding a negative effect that improves the state of the target... Sorry no, not unless you change some rules.

Sorry but... :laughing:
You´re quite welcome to try to prove that.

As universal as possible, yes. Not universal, period.
The fact that there are limits is proof that while Bonisagus was indeed trying to cover as much as he could, he did not succeed in covering EVERYTHING.

Once again, you seem to forget what the book actually says: "Rego spells can create wards which protect the target from things of the appropriate Form. These use the normal targets, but the target is the thing protected, rather than the things warded against (...)" (ArM p. 114). So, as you can see, a magus can still create a ward that will protect him from PeIg effects, since the target of such ward is himself, not the cold, which he cannot target.

Before you try to argue that if Ignem cannot target cold, then it cannot protect from it, I'd point you out to p. 78 once again, which clearly states that Ignem does indeed soak against cold.

Oh boy, here we go again. In logical steps, so you can use your 191 IQ.

1- IGNEM is a magical form that "concerns fire, heat and light" (ArM p. 78).
2- We can target fire, heat and light with IGNEM, as shown in the example spells in the book.
3- "Heat also includes relative absence of heat, so spells that result in cold temperatures are possible through Ignem," bold mine, (ArM p. 139).
4- Absence of heat can be obtained with PeIg.
5- Perdo concerns destruction or worsening. Ignem concerns fire, heat and light.
6- Thus, PeIg stands for destroying or worsening fire, heat and light.
7- Destryong heat results in cold. Destroying light results in darkness.
8- Worsening heat results in tepidness. Worsening light results in dimness.
9- Cold, darkness, tepidness and dimness are consequences of destroying or worsening heat and light.
10- As a consequence of the manipulation of heat and light, cold and darkness can be achieved.
11- They cannot, however, be targeted -not any more than death or aging can (consequence of PeCo).
12- Were cold and light possible targets, CrIg would be able to "create" cold and darkness, as the target of Cr spells are the things being created.

Now if you cannot follow that logic, I'm not sure what else I can do, really, as I'm not very good with drawings.

No, I base that specific argument on IN GAME TERMS, which is perfectly logical since we are discussing the IN GAME workings of magic.

My point exactly, here's a link so you can go back and re-read it: [url]https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/card-board-games-archive-links/116/1]

Thank you, read above.

Wow.

Well...
Time: It doesn't do well with your idea that hermetic magic affects everything... So you discard it because it's one of the greater limits? Impressive.
Humours: Indirectly affected. Just like shadow and cold. This doesn't mean you can have total control on either of these, just like, being able to affect indirectly the local gravity field (however lightly) by piling on lead at some place doesn't mean I can control gravity.
Mutoing species: My bad, I was in a hurry. I meant Mutoing species to transform them into a physical form (HoH: S p63). Your confusion is understandable. Now, this is something hermetic magic can't do.
Regio: Just like time, you may dismiss it because you don't like it or find it useful, yet this is something basic hermetic magic can't do, so your claims of it being universal are nonetheless wrong.

May I also add all the lesser limits?
After all, hermetic magic can only partially affect Aging. Just like Species, humors, or shadows.

Hermetic Magic is also unable to totally control fertility. For exemple, determining a child's sex is, unless I'm wrong, impossible without integrating non-hermetic magic.

I perfectly agree it tries to be universal. It just ain't, or some of these integration rules from Ancient Magic and Hedge Magic, as well as Mysteries, would be unnecescary.

Okay, I understand you may be angry at yan's implication that you may chose desire over logic. Still, this was a little excessive, wasn't it? Worse, it sounds boastfull, which can only deserve you and your arguments.

IMO, part of the charm of Ars Magica is trying to conceive the world through these wacky medival physics. If these are real, shouldn't they impact somewhat on the working of Magic? It also gives us more of a guideline instead of D&D-like "I want this effect to work".

Then, sure, there are these stories. You'll recall I don't discard these, but, instead of allowing him to do something that, IMO, he couldn't do, I propose other possibilities:

  • Work with the sigil. in Novus Mane, for exemple, Wirth's sigil is "A darkness, diminution of light, sometimes coming with a chill". Why couldn't his character use voice-ranged PeCo spells that LOOK like someone's shadow comes to life and rips him?
  • Introduce later "living shadows", which, in Ars terms, would be spirits of darkness.
  • There's also demonic/faerie powers and stories.

The fact that there are humors (medival science) doesn't mean demons can't cause illness or humour imbalance (medieval fantasy). Likewise, if Shadows are species, it doesn't mean a faerie can't steal them (with a rego-like effect) or that a darkness spirit can't manifest through an otherwise mundane shadow, grabbing someone's ankles.

No not impressive at all, but the limits dont conform into to "normal". And the limits are also explicitly stated as exceptions, meaning that everything else should fall under some category.
Otherwise those other things would also be limits.

Ok that is at least arguable. But based on what specifically cant hermetics do this?

No you misunderstand, i meant the comparison rather specifically, it falls into an area of essentially "too big", or do you run the game with direct control of the earth, moon, sun etc?

Yes i perfectly well know that. When i wrote it. And i still did so. Because he completely failed in logic and still berated me for lack of it. Im perfectly happy(in theory at least) with people arguing with the assumptions or facts the logic is based on, but coming up with something that is unlogical and berate my logic with it is really beyond crappy.

And if we want to be REALLY correct we have to add that the "humours" idea isnt the only one in existence at the time, its just the one whose documentation happened to survive in a greater extent.

Anyway, one of the relevant points still remains, in medieval paradigm, cold and shadows DO exist as something separate which means unless they are additional limits should still be controllable.
And if instead you skip the medieval paradigm, the fact is that down to zero K, cold is still heat, and for a shadow to exist, it must be possible to see it or its just complete and total darkness.

And then comes the big problem, at what point does cold become uncontrollable because its no longer "heat"? This can only be settled arbitrarily, meaning that i would much rather NOT settle it as having Ignem control either is perfectly fine both mechanically and theoretically.
And the same argument can be used for shadows as well even if it gets a bit more complicated.