Size +0 to +2

Here is the problem:

We have Tom th average guy (size +0) that is under the effect of a MuCo spell that grants him a +2 size.

His essential nature is still having a size +0 but is he immune to most Corpus effects now that his size is effectively +2?

I'm asking since in the corpus guidelines it states that the basic spell affects a creature of up to size +1.

Thanks for your help,

W

If I follow you, the Muto Corpus is either temporary or year as a spell of somekind needs to exist to maintain the larger size, right?

Anyway the spell could be disenchanted with Perdo Vim.

Also, as I understand it, if the corpus guidelines say affect creatures up to size 1, you can still modify that increasing the target size by adding more levels to the spell. So a standard spell may not work on Giant Dude but a modified or Spont spell would. Right?

Yup. that's pretty much it.

What I was looking to expose is that if someone increases his size to +2 or above, he will be most probably be imune to most of the Corpus spells since I doubt that many formulaic spells are designed to affect creature of size +2 & above.

Spontaneous corpus spells might be used for low level spells but will most probably be a hindrance at most.

Increasing size will not only help you withstand fireballs, lightening & pretty much any indirect attacks since you have more resistance to dammage but will also give you an immunity against corpus effects. This leaves you prey only to Memtem & Imaginem effects.

I wonder if wizards wars between combatant wizards is done thru giant forms...

W

All Co T:Group spells are.

Kind regards,

Berengar

I don't think so. It would take a T:Group + 1 mag to affect creatures up to size +4.

A bit like terram guidelines. A Muto terram spell that affects only sand will not affect rock even if the target is a group.

W

Nah, with T:Group, you get 10 Base Individuals' worth in weight, and you can split it as you want.

You probably had forgotten between posts that you spoke of size +2 in your post I answered. Be a little more precise next time.

But to affect a size +4 creature (with which you came up just now), you need indeed another magnitude because of:

ArM5, p.18: "Every three points of size represents a ten-fold increase or decrease in mass, ... "

ArM5, p.113: "A base Group contains about as much mass as ten standard Individuals of the Form. This can be split up in any way desired, so it could be two Individuals, each of five times standard size, or ten Individuals of standard size, or ten thousand individuals, each one thousandth of standard size. Every five levels added multiplies the size affected by a factor of ten."

Kind regards,

Berengar

ArM5, p.18: "Every three points of size represents a ten-fold increase or decrease in mass, ... "

ArM5, p.113: "A base Group contains about as much mass as ten standard Individuals of the Form. This can be split up in any way desired, so it could be two Individuals, each of five times standard size, or ten Individuals of standard size, or ten thousand individuals, each one thousandth of standard size. Every five levels added multiplies the size affected by a factor of ten."


Ah... Mass & not individuals. A bit modern for me but it was the answer I was looking for.

Thanks for the perfect answer.

W

Just for curiosity:

Size 0 = 1 Ind
Size 1 = 2 Ind
Size 2 = 5 Ind
Size 3 = 10 Ind
Size 4 = 22 Ind
Size 5 = 47 Ind
Size 6 = 100 Ind

2.1545^Size = Round(#Ind)

W

Nice. Thanx!

no: since the basic "Ind" for Corpus is a Size +1 person, then
Size -2, -1, 0, +1 are all covered by the basic Ind.
after that
Size +2 ~= 2 Ind (Size +1)
Size +3 ~= 5 Ind (Size +1)
Size +4 = 10 Ind (Size +1)

Note though that if you have a Group spell, affecting 10 Size +1 Ind, you can instead affect ~20 Size 0, ~50 Size -1 or 100 Size -2 persons.

Okay... seems reasonable. Here are some additionnal taughts

Size {-2;+1} = 1 Ind; Level 15
Size 2 ~= 2 Ind (Size +1); Level 20
Size 3 ~= 5 Ind (Size +2); Level 25
Size 4 ~= 10 Ind (Size +3); Level 30
Size 5 ~= 22 Ind (Size +4); Level 35
Size 6 ~= 47 Ind (Size +5); level 40
Size 7 ~= 100 Ind (Size +6); Level 45
Size 8 ~= 216 Ind (Size +7); Level 50
Size 9 ~= 464Ind (Size +8); Level 55, Ritual
Size 10 ~= 1000 Ind (Size +9); Level 60, Ritual

Size 10 ~= 1000 Ind (Size +9); Level 65, Ritual (Base 50, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +0 Circle) = Create your one night army of Titans & crush your ennemies!

2.1545^Size = Round(#Ind)

(Base 5, +0 Per, +2 Sun, +0 Ind)

Basically, size +5 is the 1st size that cannot be targetted by basic group corpus effects requiring +1mag to the group or individual spell effect. I think that room, structure & boundary effects would not need any added magnetudes. Size 8 & 11 both also require an addl magnetude.

//affecting 10 Size +1 Ind, you can instead affect ~20 Size 0, ~50 Size -1//

I would rule that from {-2 to +1}, a group target affects 10 standard individuals.

W

Caribet,

vou've securely homed in onto the spot where the ArM5 rules in question here get confused and muddled. All together we've got:

ArM5, p.18: "However, almost all human characters have the same size score, 0, as this represents an average adult human. Every three points of Size represents a ten-fold increase or decrease in mass, and an adult human can range from Size -2 to Size +2, if they take appropriate Virtues or Flaws."

ArM5, p.113: "A base Group contains about as much mass as ten standard Individuals of the Form. This can be split up in any way desired, so it could be two Individuals, each of five times standard size, or ten Individuals of standard size, or ten thousand individuals, each one thousandth of standard size. Every five levels added multiplies the size affected by a factor of ten."

ArM5, p.129: "A base individual for Corpus is an adult human being up to Size +1."

The ArM5 p.129 quote would lead me to assume that the 'standard size' of the ArM5 p.113 quote above applied to Corpus is the standard size of an adult human being, hence because of the ArM5 p.18 quote Size 0. But it better should be clarified in FAQ some time.

Kind regards,

Berengar

It's not a bad request for an FAQ, especially if it gets asked frequently...
I can see that people might assume that "average" = "standard", but that isn't the purpose of the rules:

The "average" of persons need not be the same as the "standard unit of magic", as the Target rules need to focus on limits rather than averages.
Now that 5e is mass-based, the Standard Individual sets the mass-limit on a spell with Ind Target - should magic Ind be able to target Size 0? +1? +2? There has to be an answer in a game with rules.
Having defined Magical Size Targets in terms of mass, and defined Ind, then the normal rule of Group = 10*Ind kicks in regardless.

The rules you quote are indeed the governing set - and are defined so that "most" people, including Small and Large are covered as an Individual, but Giant Blood makes you too big;
The same is found in the Animal spells - Size +1 covers upto a pony or large pig, but not a horse.

It is a quirk of the log-scale mass Targets, that setting Ind=(upto)+1, Group=10*Ind and an average person as Size 0, that Group actually covers about 20 average people... but then in 5e it covers about 50 Small Frame and 100 Dwarves.

Just to get one thing strait, if your spell is designed to affect one Indivitual (Target:Ind) it will affect only one target no matter it's size (assuming it can affect the target).

The number of targets only varies when using the group target.

Individual, Circle, Room, Structure & Boundary targets are not affected by this mass issue.

Right?

W

Two questions still remain unanswered:

1- If your spell is designed to affect one Indivitual (Target:Ind) will it affect only one target no matter it's size (assuming it can affect the target)?

Is the mass considerations applicable only when using the group target?

Individual, Circle, Room, Structure & Boundary targets would not affected by this mass issue.

Right?

2- Will a base level corpus group spell affect 10 size 0 individuals or ~20?

W

It'll affect only one individual, subject to an upper limit on the size. A smaller individual is still an individual as far as the spell is concerned.

Group lets you affect as many targets as you want, subject to a limit in total mass.

Individual is affected by the size of the 'standard' individual for the form.
Circle, Room, Structure and Boundary are area-based. Room and Structure are indirectly affected by the size (not mass) of the base individual since a Room can contain at most 100 individuals.

Though the guideline for Corpus says "up to size +1", I still consider the base individual to refer to average, size 0 humans. This would get you 10 size 0 targets, fewer larger. Conversely, for Animal, the base individual is of size +1 (a pony), so group would work on a total of 10 size +1 targets.