Size and Characteristics

Hello! Long time lurker, first time poster here. I have a question regarding Size and its effect on physical characteristics such as Strength, Stamina, etc. I'm sorry if this has been answered already in older posts (I tried a search but the first ten pages or so of results were of no help). Let's say, for example, that a mage casts a MuCo on himself to become a giant of size +3 or +4. Besides the ability to withstand more damage, how else are his characteristics affected? Does he automatically gain Strength and Stamina? Does he lose Quickness? Is he easier to hit in combat? Or do these things require additional effects, possibly pumping up the spell's magnitude?
How would you adjudicate this as story guides?

Hi!

The general rule is that for every point of Size gained, you increase the character's STR by +2 and decrease her QIK by 1.

Thus, a Giant of +3 would have Strength bonus or +6 and a Quickness penalty of -3. Please note that reduced quickness makes the character easier to hit by virtue of lowering her Defense trait. Likewise, while it doesn't increase Soak, increased Size does indirectly make a character more inured to harm by increasing the ranges of her wounds such that the example character would take Light Wounds for (1 - 8 ), Medium Wounds for (9 - 16), Heavy Wounds for (17 - 24), Incapacitating Wounds at (25 - 32), and a Fatal Wound at (33+).

I think that about covers the effects of changing Size except, perhaps, for a few special case scenarios described in the 'Realms of Power: Magic' and 'Lords of Men' supplements

This rule is mentioned in HoH:MC p. 39 for Beasts and in RoP:M p.37 for magical character generation. That being said, the the same does not hold true for the rules on standard human character generation (such as the Large, Giant Blood, and Small Frame Virtues and Flaw), leaving a wedge open for your interpretation as Storyguide, if you are not entirely happy about the 2 Strength /1 Quickness modification.

RoP:M (p 85) suggest some additional flavour rules you can use for combat between giants and lesser folk, which both limits the usefulness of some attacks on the giant and vice versa.

And as Gremlin already mentioned, one of the most vital benefits is that your wound range changes with size. Another, if fighting Hermetic enemies, is that any Corpus magic, hostile as well as benign, targeted on you would need to be adjusted in magnitude if you are larger than Size +1; which might even render some Formulaic Spells useless.

Speaking of which, concerning the spell to change size I do know that the Muto Corpus Guidelines state for level 3 that you can "Utterly change the appearance or size of a person" but I would suggest adding additional magnitudes for additional increases in Size. Oh, and don't forget various requisites unless the magi in question plan to terrorize his enemies in the nude :wink:

Perhaps worth looking at: [url]https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/mu-te-base-4-change-in-size-volume/6165/1]

Otherwise I think the essentials have been covered

Thanks for the quick and highly illuminating responses! I also noted how the size-related virtues and flaws do not follow exacty the 2 Str /1 Qu modification, so I was trying to figure out if there was some kind of rationale applied to it or if it was left to the SG. I'll check Mystery Cults and RoP: Magic, but I think that the info you all kindly provided will be more than enough to adjudicate this effect fairly. One of my players has a Mythic Blood feat that allows him to turn into a Size +4 giant with a diameter duration, and I just needed to be certain of all the implications. After reading the topic about size and volume, though, maybe the effect will need a recalculation, perhaps reducing it to Size +3. The effect was calculated as follows:

Blood of J├Âtunheim: Bergelmir's blood allows Tankred to adopt the legendary stature of his ancestors, growing to Size +4 with a duration of diameter. He does not need to utter any word, but he does have to draw Bergelmir's rune on himself. He does not need to roll, and everything he wears of animal origin (wool, leather, etc) grows with him. The effect has a Penetration total of 0. (MuCo 20; Base 3, +1 Diameter, +3 Size, +1 Animal requisite).

Does this seem correct?

AFAIK there are no official rules for this sort of change using hermetic magic. However, there exist rules for Gruagachan that do exactly what you say.

Gruagachan have 2 bases:
Base 2: Increase a human's size to no more than +3
Base 5: Increase a human's size to no more than +5

Other bases that will allow us to compare them with hermetics are

B3: turn a human to land animal
B5: turn human to bird/fish
B10: turn a human into an inamimate object, or a plant.
B15: turn human to insubstantial object.

Now, we have the hermetic guidelines for MuCo:
B3: change appearance or size of a person
B10: turn to land animal (Animal)
B20: turn to bird/fish (Animal)
B25: turn to solid inanimate object or plant
B30: turn to insubstantial object.

Now, it seems clear that the Gruagach guidelines are 3 magnitudes lower than the hermetic ones. So, I would add 3 magnitudes to the Gruagach guiodeline to find an hermetic equivalent. That means that we are looking at a base 5 to grow to size +3 and a base 20 for size +5. I could accept a base 15 for size +4 easily.

So a tinny giant (size +4) could be something like this.

Scion of Jotunnheim MuCo(An)30
R: Pers; D: Diam; T: Individual
Bergelmir's blood allows Tankred to adopt the legendary stature of his ancestors, growing to Size +4 with a duration of diameter. He does need to invoke the name of its family yelling to the sky and stomp the ground hard for the effect to work. He does not need to roll, and everything he wears of animal origin (wool, leather, etc) grows with him. The effect has a Penetration total of 0.
B15, +2 Diameter. +1 for the Animal requisite. No size increment needed, since that is the actual effect of the spell in the first place.

Note that size +4 is small for a giant; the true Jotunheim giants would be in the range of size +6 to +8, I guess, with size +5 being them playing nice to their interlocutor. :slight_smile: Not that size +4 is not a fearsome creature from their worst nightmares to most Mythic Europeans, but is small when it comes to giants :slight_smile:

Hope that helps :slight_smile:

Cheers,
Xavi

Can I attract your attention to Assume the Stature of the Giants of Eld (MoH, p. 49), which increase the user's size by +3.
It uses a base 3 MuCo guideline, but ends up with a level 10 spell.

True, but there are enough examples for us to derive some decent guesses.

And making the decent guess is what I tried to do in the rest of my post :wink:

The spell of MOH is (at least) quite generous in the parameters it uses, I would say.

So you did, sorry for ignoring you like that.

Agreed - but it's the best (ie. all) we have I'm afraid.

We could resurect this thread perhaps?

What I posted above is the gruagachan guidelines. I also showed that they have a DIRECT CORRELATION (+3 magnitudes) with the hermetic parameters for shapeshifting. So I would say that they can be used as MuCo parameters (adding 3 magnitudes for the Hermetic version, as I said) for hermetic spells. :slight_smile:

That makes the Jotunn transformation into a a MuCo(An)30 spell for size +4, and hence it requires words and gestures to work.

Cheers,
Xavi

Works for me.

I think there is a mistake in Duration: +2 Diameter, AFAIK Diameter is +1 so IMO it should be MuCo(An)25 isn't it?
I like the idea of scaling the bases, instead of adding size modifications for increased effects afterwards, since it is easily confused with the modification you need for bigger than base size individuals. It makes it less confusing and better to comprehend.

When I read the OPs question, I alsom thought of The Giants of Eld spell from MoH.

It is worth noting that, using that spell, your other Characteristics (Str and Sta) do not change at all. The only mechanical change is the size of your wound levels.