Spell Creation Help Needed

I'm trying to create a CrTe spell that silences an enemy by creating either a first sized stone or lump of mud/clay inside the target's mouth. The problem I'm finding with this spell is that I'm not very experienced in Creo when it comes to smaller objects and specified creation points, such as the mouth of an unwilling target. This is also meant to be used in combat, so the question also arises about sight of the inside of the mouth itself. So far, it looks something like this:

Silence of Silt/Hush of Hephaestus (?)
Creo Terram
R: Voice D: Sun (possibly Diam) T: Part
Base: 1/3
Creates a fist sized lump of hard mud/stone in the mouth of the target, hindering his/her ability to speak anything but gargled sounds and muffling any sounds that are formed. The lump/stone is large enough to be practically impossible to remove without dislocating the jaw.

So, I'm wondering if anyone would be able to help with the fine details surrounding this, as well as a suitable name (finding something that goes with "Silence" is hard!).

Hmmm it's certainly an interesting idea for a spell.

My first step would be to identify a similar spell to use as a boilerplate. In this case "Twist of the Tongue", level 30, suffices. Next, to decide upon the base guideline. Base 1 seems appropriate for this as a stiff clay should certainly inhibit speech. It might also be harder to remove a blob of clay than a solid stone.

Voice range is fine +2.
I'd suggest Diameter for the duration. It should be sufficient to last an entire fight and will likely be spit out or otherwise removed after the battle even if a much longer Duration were given.
Target, of course, is Individual +0.

Third, since you want to create something inside a victim's body, however, I'd personally insist on a Corpus requisite. Given the low level of this spell, however, it's unlikely to be much of a problem for you.

(Base 1, +2 Voice, +1 Diameter, +2 Corpus Requisite) = 10
(Base 3, +2 Voice, +2 Sun, +1 Corpus Requisite) = 20

Either version is lower than Twist of the Tongue, but they're also less effective since the victim need only remove his 'gag' not heal from the injuries and can thus be considered to have a significantly lower Duration despite relative parameters.

Those seem like valid thoughts, though I have a question on the Corpus requisite difference between the two versions. Why is the first Base 1 with a +2 req and the second Base 3 with a +1? Mud in the first and stone in the second, or something similar?

Also, the requisite itself poses a little bit of a problem. I'm playing a magus that is to be gauntleted in a few days, having started the campaign at 8 years old. He's a Terram specialist, and has no experience with Corpus, so keeping the level low helps tremendously.

Since he is a Elemental Magician, I'm also always trying to add elemental requisites to any spell I craft, to get as much juice as possible out of it. For this one, I'm pondering Ignem to have the mud be frozen, which would make it even harder to remove it while it also numbs the mouth, etc. Any thoughts?

The value of the Corpus requisite were just educated guesses to act as placeholders while I checked the actual value involved according to the book (+1 appears to be correct here since the spell itself is of such low level).

I'm sympathetic to your concerns about the Corpus requisite, but ultimately a Base 5 spell such as this technically qualifies as a Cantation (minor spells weak enough to be cast by Apprentices). Nevertheless, I'll give your question due thought and get back to you if I can think of any suitable modifications.

One idea, i think taht one +1 magnitud to precise effect could work, and one note on the spell description about that would need one Corpus or Animal casting requisite. Or +1 to Corpus but would change to Animal when casting against one beast. Or we could leave only the requisite like casting requisite, remember Curse of the Desert taht works too one any in that way. I think that many simple spells that no breaks anything could work with taht instead of magnitud or level requisites.
For example.

Gremlin44's solution looks solid to me, but I'm really just posting to say I think you should go with Silence of the Silt for a name. It has a roll to it!

You might be able to do away with the Corpus (and part) requirements and instead rely on insanely good timing and aim.

While this will drop the spell's level considerably, the targeting number is going to be sky-high - making such a spell more useful to a very accurate, experienced Hoplite looking for something to smash through magic resistance with.

Taking all suggestions into account, I think I'm left with a few options depending on what POV you have on the mouth targeting part.

Silence of the Silt (5)
Creo Terram
R:Voice D: Diam T: Ind
Requisite: Corpus
Base 1
Creates a fist sized lump of hard mud in the mouth of the target, hindering his/her ability to speak anything but gargled sounds and muffling any sounds that are formed. The lump is large enough to be practically impossible to remove without dislocating the jaw.

This one says that in order to hit the mouth, I need Corpus on my side. Pro: Would ignore the state of the mouth (closed/open). Con: Corpus req, more or less nullifying Terram specialization bonuses.

Second, we have the version where we mind things like Curse of the Desert and most Pe/Co spells, where the targeting isn't necessarily impeded by the target stuff being inside the body. Since this spell doesn't even inflict a wound or aim to damage, I think there could be some leeway in that regard. To balance it somewhat, I add either Part to target, since I aim at a part of the body, or a +1 for Precise effect.

Silence of the Silt (5)
Creo Terram
R:Voice D: Diam T: Part
Base 1
Creates a fist sized lump of hard mud in the mouth of the target, hindering his/her ability to speak anything but gargled sounds and muffling any sounds that are formed. The lump is large enough to be practically impossible to remove without dislocating the jaw.

And thirdly, I could create it with it needing a Finesse roll or something along those lines, to show the aiming needed to pull it off.

So, what do you people say? Personally, I'm leaning towards the second version.

One problem with your second version: Part is never a valid Target for Creo spells that create things, only Individual and Group are: the Target is the thing created. I can see what your intent is, doing away with the Corpus requirement, but Part is not the solution (indeed, the only Part here is the Part of the victim's body, and that's obviously Corpus !).

+1 Precise is closer to the goal, but I think not enough: per the rules on magic, you would need to see inside the mouth of the victim for the spell to work (a requirement that the Corpus requisite changes into just seeing the victim). +1 should be good enough to hit the mouth, but I think a +2 is more in line with hitting the mouth while it is open.

The alternative is what you suggested as a third version: go for a aiming roll. Much more challenging, unless you are good at Finesse, since you need to go for both spatial accuracy (inside the mouth) and temporal accuracy (while it is open), but you get the lowest level spell of all.

On the Precise one, it would mean that I can't aim it at the back of someone's head, but I can with Corpus, correct? In that case it seems like there is no other way. The final version, as of now, will be:

Silence of the Silt 5
Creo Terram
R: Voice D: Diam T: Ind
Requisite: Corpus
Base 1 +2 Voice +1 Diam +1 Corpus Requisite
Creates a lump of mud in the mouth of the target, hindering his/her ability to speak anything but gargled sounds and muffling any sounds that are formed. The lump/stone is large enough to fill out the whole cavity and is hard to remove.

To this, I am also adding an Ignem Requisite, since my magus is an elementalist. It would freeze the dirt, making it even harder to remove.

Now, on the requisite part. Would this be considered a free requisite, since putting the dirt in the target's mouth needs the Corpus? Or would it be said that you could do so without it, but it makes it more efficient in the aiming department?

The Corpus requisite is free.
The Ignem requisite, I'm not so sure. It doesn't cause damage, but it also doesn't really do anything that can't be done with Terram. So, I suppose you could make it frozen mud, but that doesn't add anything to the spell unless it is style, in that your character as a an Elementalist favors freezing things. Also, the idea of it being mud and frozen, suggests an Aquam element, too. This sometimes gets ignored for Terram spells and mud, but in this case, I wouldn't ignore it since you are freezing the water in the mud, and not the dirt.

[strike]Something to note for Creo Terram spells you can create stone, or other types of terram, of the size that you need and it does not increase the magnitude of the spell like it does for MuTe, PeTe and ReTe spells. Creo Terram spells create an amount based on the the type of terram it is. So, you could probably even go flashy and make it a Gold Nugget that filles the mouth cavity and call it the Silence of Midas. Note, given your interest in making it difficult to expel from the mouth, this might do it better than frozen mud.[/strike]

Hm, the gold one is actually pretty interesting. Could call it "Silence is Golden"/"Golden Silence" for the sake of it. I don't think it's the route I'm going to take, though, since I still want it to be somewhat mundane. I also thought that precious metals were a Base 15, though? I did think of using stone at the beginning, but the two added levels were unnecessary as packed dirt does just as well.

The mud part isn't that necessary, though. Dirt works just as well without complicating it, and the Ignem part is in there to further solidify it, making it harder to remove. I'm not really freezing it either, simply having it be very cold.

No, you're right, it's built into the CrTe guidelines. I'm letting my Terram inexperience show here. I need to make a Terram specialist one day. :-/
Ignore me, move along, nothing to see here.

Cold dirt, though, isn't any harder or more solid that warm dirt. It's the water that gets frozen that makes permafrost, for example.

Budding Muto/Rego Terram specialist here, myself. To create frozen mud, I'd need Te+Aq+Ig, then? Feels a bit plentiful, not to mention the thought that any dirt I create would be completely dried out if I don't add Aq to it.

A Muto specialist?

Well, make his tongue rock. Done. :smiley:

I've actually been toying with the thought of creating petrification spells, but wouldn't tongue-to-rock be pretty difficult? I'm having trouble finding the base for it, not it Mu/Co or Mu/Te.

Well, the base, is ridiculously high, and I was being, wait for it...
wait for it...
tongue-in-cheek. :smiley:

Level 25: Turn a human into a solid inanimate object (Terram requisite).
Given you're just going for the tongue, makes it T:Part, and Voice Range and diameter duration pushes it to a 45th level spell.

Welp, there we go! If I have to go one magnitude higher to just get the tongue, not to mention the Co requisite, I think Silence of the Silt will fit my purpose just fine. Thanks for all the help, I think the spell is nailed down enough to bring forward now.

To be honest, I would not accept this if I was Story Guide.
The reason why is that I could use a similar spell (CrTe 5 (Co)) to create a stone inside the heart or lungs (make that a group spell to target both lungs at the same time) of a person and thereby using a level 5 spell to instakill him.

Yes, but that similar spell could be deemed to be a ritual, under RAW. Doing so makes it impossible to be used in combat, requites the target stay within voice range for the hour[1], and uses 4 pawns of vis. While it is true that it is lower level than any other insta-kill spells, it has other costs and limitations that limit the utility.

[1] It could be argued that he only needs to be present when the ritual is finished.