Place to put up our own spell creations:
I already did create 3 spells and added 1 from the book with a slight variation where I'm not sure if this spell is in our game

Holy Magic:
Cr Co 10 St. Michaels Circle of Healing Effect: Recovery (your usual ring recovery spell) +6 Base +3 Touch +1 Ring +2

Holy Magic & Rote
Re Co 10 Wings of an Angel Base 5 Recitation +1 While recite a prayer the magus can slowly move in any direction he wished, even to a unsuported one.
Re Co 10 Untouchable Aura Base 3 Presence +2 Diameter +1 Ind. Slowly move a target away from the magus in the most direct way till it reach the limit of the aura (50 paces for Paulos) or the target would be pushed to a spot that would be unsupported.
Re Co 10 Gift of the Tortured Bowels (A&A 57) Eye, Mom, Sin (I'm not sure if this spell is in our game or if my char can use it as noncombat who can't sin with the magic he use)

It looks like we need to rule how our group want to handle teleport spells:
In https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/teleport-related-questions/11663/1 one shot pointed out that in Transforming Mythic Europe the writer who worked at page 107 did so under the assumption that Teleport spell don't need requisite Forms for clothes and equipment also to get teleported.
Because HoH:S p.36 Wizard's Leap assume the opposite we need to decide if Re/Co teleport spell need requisite forms to teleport more then the naked human and if they need if that are +0 or +1 level requisites.

That's a very good question. Wizard's Leap specifically mentions requisites, but I have never been in a saga that used requisites for Leap of Homecoming. So, I'm not sure where that leaves us. I'd be happy to follow TME's interpretation and say that teleport spells allow you to bring clothing and small items on your person (and a familiar if they're small), but that anything large requires a requisite.

What do others think?

I agree that we should go with the TME interpretation, the difficulty of this spells get already high enough even without lowering your lab & casting score with prerequisites.

I think if we are going to use Re spells to undress someone it should be by intent, not due to lack of requisits.

OK then it looks decided that we use the TME interpretation for Teleport spells.

Despite it not affect the pre game much, although I might need to change the intelego summa, I think I still need to bring up the Understanding Guideline RoP:54 as my character can use them with his arts.
We need to sort the spell guidelines there to art and form and decide what have to be rituals (everything that break the Hermetic limits need to be rituals)

  • For the Reduce botch dice you roll by the magnitude of this effect by predict the best possible time and circumstances guideline I'm not sure but I would go Intellego - Vim momentary Ritual on this (breaking limit of time although it get from the description but not effect near to what planetary magic do)
  • The 4 enhance Memory guidelines sound very much like the Creo Mentem guidelines in HoH:TL so I would put them there and even though they are momentary effects I don't tink they are rituals
  • The advice like common sense sound also like Creo Mentem non ritual
  • the Divination (Vision and Predict most likely outcome) are probably Intellego+Vim and rituals because breaking the limit of time

The reason I sorted most of the guidelines to Vim is because the knowledge come from the divine and the only form therotical (if we let the limit of Divine out) affect the Divine is Vim and Intellego is the natural technique for divination.

(Side note my character can do 1-2 magnitude of the reduce botch dice the Miracle way at game start but without future study it need 11h <12h-Hermetic Gematria> to invoke it)

I suppose if you're going to have a spell to reduce botch dice (by a lot, if it's 1 per magnitude), we ought to settle on what it means to say that the spell predicts the best possible time and circumstances to perform virtuous actions. As I see it, this imposes three limits on the spell's use: (1) the act performed has to be performed at a specific time; (2) the act must be performed under specific circumstances; and (3) the act must be virtuous. Alas, those are all very subjective. Theoretically, the best time to take a particular action might be a week from Tuesday and not right now. Or the circumstances might be to take a particular action along with the check. And heaven help us trying to figure out whether it's a "virtuous" action. Some will clearly be yes, others clearly no, but there will be a lot in the grey area in between. I guess it's something that will have to fall on the current storyguide to decide,

I'll have to give some thought as to what I'd consider a ritual and what not.

Err, My understanding is that there are seven Powers: Adjuration, Blessing, Cursing, Intervention, Transcendence, Understanding and Wonders. You must choose a tradition which will have two our three of these powers. I didn't see which tradition you selected, and associated powers.

But what I see is that you could try for a Understanding level 35 effect Base 25+2 Sun "Lord guide my hand, for You are inerrant". Now, for the remainder of the day, you reduce Botch dice by five. Given that this is a Divine effect, this can reduce botch dice to 0. Page 46 of RoP:D denotes the process - you don't use Hermetic arts, you must develop Abilities in Methods and Powers, and roll a target number. These miraculous abilities are developed by Holy men, and I read it as something completely separate from being a Holy Magus.

Actually, there are seven powers, as you note, and three methods: Invocation, Meditation, and Purity. The tradition you choose will give you access to a subset of these powers and methods (which, BTW, require major virtues to buy). Furthermore, these powers and methods are supernatural abilities, which mean they grow by the slow advancement of abilities, not the fast advancement of Arts.

That does seem to be the case.

There is one line in RoP:D on p. 67 that says that one of the benefits of being a holy magus is that you "May use holy power guidelines as spell guidelines." But absolutely nothing else is said about that. I presume that Adauli is relying on that portion of the rules for access to the power guidelines.

If that's the case, then being a holy magus allows you to not only gain access to what would otherwise require ten major virtues, but also would allow those powers to be developed using Arts rather than Abilities, vastly increasing the magnitude of effects that would be possible.

Its only Understanding I can use with my magus because he have both the 2 major virtue understanding and (hermetic) gematria what work as meditation replacement.
From RoP:69

And exact this soryguide decision is what I'm now asking to be done as group decision.

If this were something that could be easily and generically done I suspect the ROP:D book would have done it, and I think the question should be addressed on a spell by spell basis...

Ok, so you'll have Gematria and Understanding as part of your Mystery Tradition. I'll accept that you'll use calculations rather than mediation to access this. Both Gematria and Understanding advance as Abilities.

Within Understanding, the foretelling of the future breaks Hermetic guidelines. That would have to be a ritual, which you could use Fatigue instead of vis. If you wanted to know the future of a person, I'd guess it would be Intellego Mentum, to know the minds, and what he/she will become.

Using Understanding, and failing the roll can be disasterous, as listed on page 46, RoP:D. Your character doesn't have True Faith, which is a backstop against devastating consequences.

What do people think? Would a spell that raises one physical characteristic be similar to a spell that raises another physical characteristic? They have the same R, D, and T (Touch, Mom, Ind/Circle). Would they be considered "closely related" in that they both improve a physical characteristic? The core rules do suggest erring on the side of generosity... :slight_smile:

As an example,, say I learned Strength of the Follower (CrCo 35). Would that be considered "similar" to Stamina of the Heroes (CrCo 60)?

This is clearly an important question, since getting to the high lab totals necessary to learn some of these spells is tough, and an extra +7 could make a huge difference.

Assuming both of your examples had same Range, Duration, and Target, I'd say that they were similar. The CrMe stat boosters could be similar to one another, and the CrCo are could be similar.

Let me also state that I'm planning to do the same thing, and have the same interest that Trogdor has. To do a enhancer with a max of +5 requires developing a level 60 spell, which means three seasons if you can manage a level 80 lab total.

Have we decided whether you can develop Circle-based spells that don’t cause warping, or are we all on our own for developing these spells?

On further thought, I've decided no: Circles must be drawn around the target - page 112, ArM5 - I can't just make a floor tile pattern and use that, I must draw it during the casting. As the Circle doesn't exist before I draw it, how could I possibly configure a spell to accept a pattern that doesn't exist?
Adauli posted:

I'm not opposed to the idea of a Spell Mastery ability, but it would probably take a Minor Breakthrough to accomplish it.

However, I do feel that this is focusing on a small matter. I can't imagine getting more than a dozen-odd Warping points due to stat gains or healing (perhaps my expectations are unreasonable), and I'm giving Poenitens 30 Warping points on each 15-year chunk, it just seems insignificant.

I'm interested in circles because now I can increase Stamina on a lot of people, for the same cost. Like Rooms, Circles aren't really limited in size, as long as they meet the definition. If I make a circle 8 paces across, this is about 50 square paces in area, - a square pace being a little smaller than a square meter, I figure two people can fit in one square pace. This allows up to 100 people to benefit from a ritual. I mean, one reason why everyone sends their kids to our school is that literally, every child really is smarter after attending!

As I look on it, it's such a powerful and obvious tool, much like teaching your familiar Magic Theory, that you'd be crazy not to do it if you could.

I say they are close related effect but not same effect. But because one example is "damage with Creo Ignem" what also could be interpreted like "healing with Creo Corpus".
I think we here have the similar like this:
"increasing characteristics with Creo Corpus", "increasing characteristics with Creo Mentem" and "permanent increasing characteristics" what break the border of the Form

My last 2 posting on the excluding people from the warping of strong spells with group and area spells so we can continue with the discussion here

Adauli, let me make sure I understand you. You said closely related, not same affect. I interpret that to mean that it's close enough to count for a similar spell bonus. We need every bit we can scavenge to get high enough lab totals. Do you agree that it's close enough to count for a similar spell - two CrCo spells that enhance two different physical attributes, but with the same range, duration, and target?

Because, remember, you can get the similar spell bonus if the spell is the same effect with a different R, D, or T, or if it’s closely related but has the same R, D, and T. This instance is looking to fit into the second category.

I can accept that.

That does lead to the question of what is a reasonable amount of warping for a starting magus. Obviously 1/year that you have a LR up. But what about beyond that? I’m not sure a one-size-fits-all approach is appropriate. For example, silveroak’s magus and mine can’t cast stressing spontaneous magic (a common source of warping). Likewise, my magus has Cautious Sorcerer and a decent Gold cord. I don’t want to skimp on warping points, but I also don’t want to give my magus more than is reasonable.

We just want to make sure we don’t return the children warped. :wink: