I agree that MuVi don't need to affect penetration, the number of times the effect can be used or the trigger.
I'd agree that your magic would be considered part of Divine Realm, and allow healing in the case that you specified.
If you want to use Intervention with a Method and Power, you don't need to use vis to attempt to locate demons. If you want to detect demons with Intellego Vim, you do, since you are breaking a limit. You could actually detect them, unlike the vast majority of magi. I'm not completely sure on how to rule on this, so I'm open to discussion. But that's the sense I get from reading RoP:D
Note that it's a lot easier to use a CrCo spell to heal people than it is to use Intervention miracle. Additionally, you could use your Fatigue to create vis for the ritual.
sorry thompsja this questions I deleted came from me misunderstanding how holy magic activate the miraculous effects! Its actual still Holy Music that activate it and Holy Magic only gives extra power.
I will write later a detailed explanation and new questions because of this.
I think I now understand how holy magic use the miraculous effect (RoP:D 69). For a long time I assumed that I have to invent spells and rituals to use this guidelines but that is actual wrong!
Holy Magic actual "only" improve the power and replace the activation characteristics with stamina for the normal activation of a miraculous effect!
To add a the suitable form and technique to the normal activation of a miraculous effect you have to spend at last 15 minutes per magnitude of the effect to activate it (Ceremonial casting) and if the effect breaks Hermetic limits it is of at last 4. magnitude, you also have to spend 1 suitable Vis per magnitude and gain 1 extra botch die per magnitude also (Ritual casting).
So for my character this means he have to roll each 10 minute presence + music (or if allowed Enigmatic Wisdom see below for my 4. question) and it take 1h or the magnitude x 15min what ever is larger, in the end he roll on stamina+ holy music + intervention or blessing + form + technique to activate the effect.
(This means that for holy music based effects up to the magnitude of 4 there isn't a change in the invoking duration but the suitable form and technique still can be added to the roll as long the effect not breaking Hermetic Limit)
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As this form of activation means the magic is from the Divine Realm and so break the limit of infernal (ArM 79) would that mean all intellego magic using this methode of enpowering a miraculous effect need to spend vis and add extra botch die?
<I say no here as long the effect it self don't break any other limit, because what breaks the limit is the divine source of this "magic"> -
Is Cautious Sorcerer and Golden Cord reduce the botch die when using this methode of enpowering a miraculous effect?
<as it is the "hermetic/holy magic" that add the botch die I say yes> -
Can a specific holy music prayer using this method be mastered despite that the magus don't have a specific spell/ ritual invented as this isn't possible in this case?
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When setting Singing as artistic skill for "may use Enigmatic Wisdom in lieu of one artistic skill" with The Avenue of Adulation and Station of Expression can I use Enigmatic Wisdom for the Music rolls needed every 15 minutes to activate Holy Music?
I"m not entirely certain what you mean by this. But if you mean should an Intellego effect that detects demons be considered a ritual and require vis, then I think the answer is yes. When describing Holy Magic (that's the only guidance we seem to get), the rules state that if an effect violates a Hermetic Limit then it must be a ritual. Importantly, it does not say if the effect breaks a Hermetic Limit other than the Limit of the Infernal that it must be a ritual. Threfore, by my interpretation if an effect violates any Hermetic Limit, including the Limit of the Infernal, it must be a ritual. Divine magic allows the option of violating the Limit of the Infernal. That's a huge advantage. But it can't be done without spending vis.
That having been said, if you're using just plain supernatural Methods/Powers to achieve the result then, as I understand it, that's not a Hermetic effect at all, nor is it interpreted as holy magic. That shouldn't require vis.
I think what's confusing me is the comparison to Holy Magic. I had thought your new magus would not have Holy Magic, but would instead have True Faith and Holy Music. However, all Holy Music does is act as the Meditation method with some slightly different rules. It doesn't give you access to the ability to cast hermetic spells using the divine effects guidelines, as Holy Magic does. So, using Holy Music means that you can use Divine Methods, not that you can incorporate them into hermetic spells. As a result, I don't know where you would get an Intellego effect at all.
That's a very good question. Cautious Sorcerer says you roll three fewer botch dice "when casting spells (either spontaneous or formulaic)." The description of the Gold Cord says that "The familiar helps
you avoid magical errors, letting you roll fewer botch rolls when using magic. Your golden cord score is the number subtracted from the number of botch rolls you would normally make (though you must always roll at least one)." (Emphasis added.)
Is empowering a miraculous effect "using magic?" Arguably, since it's based on the Divine Realm and not the Magic Realm, it's not "using magic" but rather "using the divine." Similarly, is empowering a miraculous effect "casting a spell?" Arguably not, since it doesn't use Arts. Invoking divine powers is neither a spontaneous nor a formulaic spell.
I'm also confused by your comment that it is the hermetic/holy magic that adds the botch dice. Again, I though you weren't using holy magic anymore. Am I wrong about that?
As I understand it, you'll just be using Divine powers and methods to create effects. The disadvantage of that is that you can't use Cautious Sorcerer/Gold Cord to reduce botch dice. The advantage is that you'll probably end up rolling fewer botch dice to begin with, There seems to be no requirement to spend vis on any of those abilities, so that won't add any botch dice. Foreign Auras don't mess up Divine powers, so that's not a problem either. So far as I can tell, Holy Music should have a base 1 botch die.
I tend to agree. Invocations using methods/powers are not spells.
According to the ability Holy Music, you use your Music ability to make the roll, If your Virtue says that you get to use Enigmatic Wisdom in place of Music, then it seems like that should work just fine.
I have both True Faith and Holy Magic each bought as major Virtue from the default maximum 10 points. With Holy Magic my major hermetic virtue.
Wasn't it you who brought up that True Faith allow to select 1 holy tradition where the supernatural ability cost nothing extra when learning them?
Thompsja then said that its Ok to already learn them during character generation without having to pay for the virtues. What followed by your comment that you also consider to pick True Faith as virtue because its so powerful.
And that is why I did then buy each of the Supernatural ability from The Cantores with 5 exp to level 1 during apprentice time without having the specific supernatural virtue.
But if I got it the wrong way and I shouldn't learn this ability from The Cantores during character generation already then sorry. Anyway it would only then change that within 1-3 years after game start I will have them.
Once I have Holy Music and Intervention (or Blessing) at 1 the interaction with Holy Magic becomes important as it is one of the 2 ways to gain a high effect score for a miraculous effect.
(The normal way of reliable casting miraculous effects end with ~25-30 at maximum)
As mentioned above I still using Holy Magic the alternative would be taking ceremony and have 2 complete unrelated form of "magic".
That is where I think you are wrong because when I want to add forms and technique via Holy Magic to the miraculous effect that break Hermetic Limit I add botch die and vis cost like it is a hermetic ritual. So it can get a lot of botch die.
But you are right its realy a mess how it is writen how Holy Magic interact with miraculous effect. I needed quite some time till I realized that only when I see it like Holy Music, Meditation, Invocation etc are still the activating power that this part make sense to me.
I was confused because you were going with the Cantores, who don't have Holy Magic as learnable ability. I hadn't realized you were taking Holy Magic as a major virtue quite apart from that. (Or I forgot - more likely.) That changes my analysis completely. Once you're practicing hermetic holy magic, it's a whole different ballgame. Then you are casting spells, and using magic. So for any use of Holy Magic, you should be able to deduct your Gold cord and Cautious Sorcerer dice from botches. But if you fall back on just using Holy Music and Blessing, for example, as divine supernatural abilities, without using hermetic holy magic, then you probably shouldn't get the reduction in botch dice.
What it comes down to is that you have two ways of creating divine effects:
(1) Using the supernatural abilities in the way described in RoP:D, just as any non-Gifted person with those abilities could; or
(2) Creating the divine effects using hermetic holy magic.
In the case of (1), you're just using a divine supernatural ability with no relation to the Arts at all. That's not using magic, nor is it casting a spell. In that case, you shouldn't gain the benefit of Cautious Sorcerer or a Gold cord, but you also shouldn't suffer the limitation of vis cost or making things a ritual if you violate a Hermetic Limit.
In the case of (2), however, you're casting a sort of divine-magic hybrid spell. Then you get all the benefits and suffer all the limitations of divine hermetic magic. You should get the bonuses for Cautious Sorcerer and your Gold cord, but you'll have to pay vis and suffer extra botch dice if you violate a Hermetic Limit.
My confusion was that I thought you only qualified for those abilities under (1). Now that I see that you qualify under both (1) and (2), I can give a more complete answer.
FWIW, I also maintain that if you are using hermetic holy magic and you violate any of the Hermetic Limits. even the Limit of the Infernal, then it should cost vis and be a ritual. I don't think that the Limit of the Infernal is a freebie.
Thanks. Ok together with thompsja's similar answer regarding the intellego magic it is then decided. (I withdraw my vote here to prevent a draw)
Holy magic using a miraculous effect what have the chance to see trough infernal deception need to be ritual magic.
So the 1st question is decided leaves question 2-4 of open as only Trogdor answered to them
Regarding Question 4, you are correct. My answer was yes, you can use EW in place of Singing.
An issue here- enigmatic wisdom is based on a cosmology of cycles and rebirth which is essentially Buddhist in nature, and you are using this to trigger a Christian miraculous effect? The two seem fundamentally incompatible to me...
Holy Music, described on page 93, says roll Presence + Music, with a difficulty set by circumstance to add to the effect total on Page 46. It says "Presence + Music" twice on the same page, so it's definitely the Music skill, which could be replaced by EW. The Holy Music Ability doesn't seem to have any value beyond 1, since it just allows a bonus to be conditionally applied to another roll. It's not that much of a bonus, it's fine with me.
@silveroak the activation of Holy Music how I understand it:
It is the ability music and not holy music that is used as some sort of meditation/focusing in preparation for the actual miraculous effect roll that then use holy music.
What I'm asking is if I can use Enigmatic Wisdom that I can use for singing thanks to a mystery virtue for this preparing music rolls.
I didn't ask if I can use them in place of Holy Music or Enchanting Music as both go beyond what normal singing can do.
(sorry somehow thought the Music roll was every 15 Min in a earlier post here)
I just try to work trough Blessing-Meditation guideline "Give a character a bonus to aging rolls equal to the magnitude of the effect; this must be called with Year duration to have any effect" if it is interesting to use.
So lets set the Miraculous Effect first its Base 5 + 4 Year + 2 Voice + 2 Faith (Group replacement) = 45 natural this is to much without Holy Magic.
As the Hermetic LR is Creo+Corpus I think this blessing guideline is also Creo+Corpus. (Although Muto+Corpus also sound reasonable)
Now the most important thing is if this spell break Hermetic Limit what I would say No given how the Limit of Aging is writen.
But if it not break Hermetic limit then its just cermonial casting without costing vis and with just a simple die to roll!
lets assume this happen in a small church the preparing singing need 2h 15 Min also assuming the 14 singing roll did go without a hitch the final roll would be:
Aura (3) + stamina (2)+ holy music (5) + blessing (1) + form (16)+ technique (15) = 42 so still need to roll just for the basic +1 but a other 13-15 for this roll could be possible to gain during the character generation (Means +2 or 3 to the aging rolls)
I don't think i can use a magic aura for Miraculous Effect even if I empower it with Holy Magic so the +3 Aura is what I can get at most.
Now the most import thing here is the Warping. That it is a powerfull effect is clear but is it adjusted to the affected group or not, I would say yes as the Miraculous Effect have no fixed spells.
With just 1 point of warping each year it could be interesting even if only give 1-3 to the aging rolls for a group of faitfull.
(Sure I could lower the difficulty by 15 for a single person or circle target but at last circle sound thematic wrong and the Faith target add a extra layer of protection against sin with it)
Creo Corpus sounds good to me.
It seems to me that if all you're doing is giving a bonus to Aging rolls, then that doesn't break the Hermetic Limit on Aging. After all, isn't that what longevity rituals do?
Do they get regular Warping Points for that? Because a minor flaw for five years of a +3 bonus to Aging checks seems a poor trade to me. I'm not sure how many faithful would enter into such a bargain knowingly.
Even if you lowered it by 15, it's still 30, which causes Warping.
No the 15 lower means I could do 3 more in bonus for the aging rolls. Each point in bonus increase the base of the Miraculous Effect by 5 with no theoretical upper limit.
I have found nothing so far that Miraculous Effect are not using the normal warping rule (except that it is divine), so yes its at last the 1 point warping per year.
So that means the group way is impractical because the warping is not worth a +3 to aging rolls. With +5 or +6 for a single person things looks a bit different as it is just a day of work for each year compared to a full season of works that then hold for many years.
The main thing here is that from my point of view it is not meant for a magus or companion but instead for important religious grog.
If you can get it to +5 or +6 then it's comparable to a LR for a grog (but without the vis cost and without the commitment). A 50 or 60 LT would only give a +5 or +6 LR to a grog anyway. At that point I could see a person being willing to take on the effects of warping. I wasn't so sure if it was just +2.
Ok then I will build my character up that I can do the +5 at the start of the game with maybe a summa from the personal BP so that he can do +6 at a later point.
Of course I may be jaded by LRs in my analysis. Typically a +1 LR equates to about an extra ten years of life. When viewed that way, would someone accept some warping for an extra 20-30 years of life? Probably, though I imagine they'd want to delay the Warping as long as possible. Consider of you told a 50 year old medieval man that instead of dying in the next decade or two, you could extend his life to probably 90, maybe more. And oh yea, it'll cause him to be warped a little. Well, Warping is better than dying. He'd probably jump at the chance.
So, maybe a +2 or +3 effect is better than I originally thought.
Still, +5 or +6 is much better.
I'm reading this completely different than you.
First off, Blessing says that "give a a character a bonus to aging rolls equal to the magnitude of the effect." So using the low-magnitude rules, a +5 bonus is a level 5 spell, but a +6 is level 10. Let's go with level 5. We make it Touch (+1), and Year duration (+4). So we need to hit a 30 on our Blessing + Holy Music Roll. This is doing this as a Miracle.
Now you say, you want to make this a Hermetic spell. Ok, it's still level 30, but you give a +5 to aging rolls for just one year. This is going to give 5 warping points - since this is a spell, not a ritual, and not made specificially for a person. You've made a spell that the Hermetic's can't, and it takes 1.5 hours rather than a season. But it's going to warp people. Remember powerful mystic effects do one warping point a season, in addition to the initial cast. If you truly want a extended life, you're better off with a Longevity Ritual, which has an indefinite duration. However, your spell won't cause sterility.
But Spell Basics (ArM5 p. 81) states that "Spells also have a magnitude, which is equal to the level divided by five, rounded up." So, according to that, a simple spell of level 3 is not third magnitude, but is rather first magnitude. Furthermore, Warping happens when you are under the effects of a spell of 6th magnitude of higher. In every saga I've ever been in, that was interpreted as level 30 or higher, not level 10 or higher.
I must conclude, therefore, that the magnitude of the Blessing effect must be 30 in order to get a +6 Aging check, not a 10.
I could go either way on this. You're right that I'm unaware of any way that a normal hermetic magus could incorporate this into a spell. But RoP:D simply states that "if the effect breaks Hermetic limits, it must be a Ritual." (RoP:D, p. 69). The Limit of Aging states that "Hermetic magic cannot halt or reverse natural aging, although it can slow it down and mitigate its effects." (ArM5, p. 80.) So hermetic magic explicity can slow down aging. Since the Blessing effect appears to be just slowing down aging, which explicitly does not violate the Limit of Aging, I'm inclined to say that it's not violating the Limit of Aging.
But then, it's duration Year, and any hermetic spell with duration Year has to be a ritual. (I think if you move from miracles to casting you have to take the bad with the good.) So, I must conclude that it has to be a ritual.
Ah, but here you have me. I wasn't paying close enough attention to the Warping rules. And as I read the chart on p. 168 of the core rules, you get 6 Warping points for the spell:
- 1 for the initial casting;
- 4 for the four seasons you're under the effect of a powerful enchantment not designed for you; and
- 1 for being under the effects of a powerful enchantment for a full year.
That's pretty awful and not something that anyone would willingly submit to.
Now, if you want to game the system, you could design a base 1 anti-aging blessing. According to the rules, that's a 1/5 magnitude spell, rounded up to 1. Add +1 for Touch and +4 for Year and you're only at level 10. You could safely go up to +2 Group/Faith and It'll still only be level 20. Granted, that's pretty cheesy, and it'll only ever get you a +1 to your Aging roll. But it seems to be legit according to a strict interpretation of the rules.