spell-creations

Retired Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: What if we joined them
81

You forget on important thing the personal adjustment! If a powerful spell or mystical effect is designed for a person its just 1 Warping point per year!
Are you saying Spontaneous Hermetic Spells of 6. magnitude or higher are never designed for the subject if it isn't the caster?
(After all Miraculous Effects are spontaneous ceremonial magic with different rules how to invoke them)
Also I always said that +1 Aging Roll with touch + year is 30 , +2 Aging touch + year is 35 and so on.
The Base > 5 is just then written direct as Base 10 Base 15 and so on instead of Base 6, Base 7 etc..

Edit: about the Duration RoP:D 48 say "Hermetic limitations to Duration and Target do not apply to holy effects Instead, the Level is increased by 20." ... "For comparison, holy effects generally add four magnitudes for a Boundary target, Year duration, or permanent duration." But if you look at the example spells its always just the +4 that is added for year duration without a extra +20 to the base.

82

That's an interesting question. You're making the spell up on the fly, so why not make it up for a specific person. Unless you say you need more time or information (like a horoscope or the like) to design it for a person).

Of course, that's an edge problem. It only happens when someone can cast level 30 spontaneous powers. Assume a +2 Sta, a lucky +3 for a talisman, an Aura of 3, and a 5 on the die roll and you have to have a combined 47 in your Arts to get the spell to cast. That's an average of 23.5 in both Arts. I'm not saying that's not possible, but it should be fairly rare.

And, of course, you can't have spontaneous year-long spells since spells of a year duration are rituals and rituals can't be spontaneous.

83

Since the duration is Year, they can't be Spontaneous. But powerful spells... Say an effect like Gift of the Bear's Fortitude, that's level 30, and a well-schooled mage would be able to pull that off as a Spontaneous spell. No, I can't see a spontaneous spell be designed for a particular target that are done in a round. If done with Ceremonial Casting, I could see that they were individualized.

84

about the Duration RoP:D 48 say "Hermetic limitations to Duration and Target do not apply to holy effects Instead, the Level is increased by 20." ... "For comparison, holy effects generally add four magnitudes for a Boundary target, Year duration, or permanent duration." But if you look at the example spells its always just the +4 that is added for year duration without a extra +20 to the base.

Also don't you forget about Ceremonial Casting that is also spontaneous casting but add both Artes Librales and Philosophia?
Don't forget the closest hermetic equifalent to Miraculous Effects ist spontanous ceremonial casting. And I also have made it very clear that even for the level 30 version need 1.5h to bring it into effect if I use it with Holy Magic. (1h if I had a uber powerfull aura and both Blessing and Holy Music at maximum)

85

You left out a rather important part of that quote, in my opinion, as well as its context. The quote refers to holy effects (i.e., miraculous effects using Methods and Powers). The full quote is: "Hermetic limitations to Duration and Target do not apply to holy effects, since holy characters do not have rituals or need vis. Instead, the Level is increased by 20." (Emphasis added for omitted portion.)

This section is referring to how to use holy Powers and Methods. Such holy effects can't be cast as rituals, nor do they require vis. As a result, you can't say that if the Duration is a Year or the Target is Boundary that they need to be a ritual and cost vis. Therefore, in order to allow holy effects to have Year Duration and Boundary Target, they specifically note that Hermetic limitations to Duration and Target do not apply to holy effects.

My interpretation, based on that, is that if you want to make a straight miraculous effect, using your Method and Power and doing it all without holy magic the way a non-Gifted person would do, then I say you are totally exempt from the Hermetic limits of Duration and Target.

But, holy magic is different. As I said earlier, you take the bad with the good. The good is that you get to use your Arts instead of just your Methods and Powers. That's a huge bonus. But the flip side is that you now can cast them as rituals, and you can spend vis (both for good and bad reasons), just like a hermetic magus. You're no longer in the realm of "holy effects," but are instead in the realm of "holy magic." Holy magic does have rituals and can spend vis. In fact, holy magic specifically calls out one instance where you cast as a ritual and pay vis - when violating a Hermetic limit.

That tells me two things. First, the exemption called out for holy effects need not apply, since ritual casting is possible in holy magic. Second, even if the exemption did apply, violating the limit of Duration or Target by trying to cast without using a ritual would require you to cast using a ritual. I know that's a kind of paradox. But coupled with my first point it tells me that once you move to the realm of holy magic (using Arts instead of Methods and Powers), you are once again bound by the Hermetic limits of Duration and Target, and anything with a Duration of Year or Target of Boundary (or equivalents) must be cast as a ritual and will cost vis.

86

I think it's very important to distinguish between the rules for holy effects (using the Powers and Methods to create miraculous effects), and the rules for holy magic (using Arts to create miraculous effects).

When using holy effects (Powers and Methods), it is akin to spontaneous ceremonial casting. You pick your effect, try and invoke it, and either succeed or fail. You don't have to learn them ahead of time, nor are you limited in what effects you can use. Whatever you can manage with your Method and Power is good.

Holy magic is different. Holy magic, in many important ways, works just like hermetic magic. You learn formulaic spells or rituals based on spell guidelines and can later cast those spells using your full CT. In addition, you can cast spontaneous spells using 1/2 of your CT if it's fatiguing, or 1/5 of your CT if it's non-fatiguing, again using the spell guidelines. Holy magi are different in a number of ways, one of which is that they may use holy power guidelines as as spell guidelines. So, what does that mean?

Well, it means that you can learn formulaic spells or rituals based on holy power guidelines and can later cast those spells using your full CT. In addition, you can cast spontaneous spells using 1/2 of your CT if it's fatiguing, or 1/5 of your CT if it's non-fatiguing, again using the holy power guidelines. In doing this, all of the rules pertaining to casting spells should still apply to the holy magus (except as specifically called out in the holy magic restrictions and benefits).

It's tempting, but wrong, to conflate the two sets of rules. Holy magi don't get to cast spells using the holy effect rules. If they want to use the holy effect rules, they need to use their Powers and Methods to invoke miraculous effects. The only advantage holy magi have with respect to holy powers is the ability to use holy power guidelines as spell guidelines. But as I said, all restrictions and requirements for holy magic casting should still apply.

If you want to create a miraculous effect based on the holy power guidelines and you want to use your full CT, then you need to learn the spell, just like you would a spell based on the regular Arts guidelines. If, instead, you want to create a miraculous effect on the fly, then you have to divide your CT by 2 or by 5 (depending upon whether you take fatigue or not) to see if you can make the target number. Any benefits gained by practitioners of holy powers (like ignoring the hermetic limits of Duration or Target) don't apply to you when practicing holy magic. Because you're not using a holy effect. Rather you're using the neat ability holy magicians have to use holy power guidelines as spell guidelines. Nothing more; nothing less.

87

I completely agree.

88

So you say my interpretation that holy magic only add power to the miraculous effects is wrong?
Then I wonder why there is it that there is no talk how you can use the guidelines with formulaic spells instead you always have to use them Ceremonial or as Ritual?
Also why do you need the activation method of the miraculous effect? (What depending on the method need you to spend 1 confidence point, fast for weeks or meditate / sing for 1h with a chance to lose fatigue level during this time)

89

You have Holy Music replacing Medidation with Blessing. You decide that a sick person needs a Miracle. You decide to give him a +12 to recovery rolls for a Moon's duration. This is Level 4 +1 for Touch, +3 for Moon. Total level of 20. You play hymns for a time and roll based on the table on page 46.

We've come upon a spy ring, and our Mentem magic is insufficient to discern the encoded information. You decide to create a spell using the Intervention guidelines, specifically Level 15 "Read meaning into unfamiliar writing" You decide on Range of Personal and duration Sun. 15 +2 Sun is level 25. You research an Intellego Mentem spell Reveal the Truth. This is beyond Hermetic Magic, as magi can't do a translation without the mind of a person there. You now can read secret messages, or languages unknown to you, such as Bjorner's Gothic. So this does require vis.

As an example of a guideline that doesn't require a ritual, you decide on Angel's Wings - a Muto Corpus effect that grants wings to people to allow them to fly. You give it Duration Fast (p. 68), so they can have flight as long as they follow a restricted diet.

You could use Intervention level 3, target Vision, duration Concentration. This would be made level 20 Intellego Vim spell, but it displays all regiones, not just a specific type, and how to enter/exit them. Your Holy magic doesn't have the specificity of Hermetic Magic.

I'm not sure how much time is required to invoke the powers.

90

That is exactly where we have different opinion.

Your interpretation is spontaneous doing a miraculous effect with Holy Magic half your score and have to be done ceremonial but you also can invent spells with the guidelines although the formulaic are also cast ceremonial.
This have the downside spells need to invented for the full score or if they are a ritual but then you also can master the invented spells.
Also it leaves open the question if the miraculous effect used this way are still Divine or become Magic Realm and if the Magic Realm add to the casting total.
Beside that we here also have to answer if failing the roll in activating a miraculous effect via Holy Magic also bring up a tragedy of hubris.

My interpretation is there are no invented spells using miraculous effect with Holy Magic and the spontaneous magic casting need to be ceremonial with the casting score count full.
Also it only become a "ritual", what means vis cost and added botch die to the ceremonial casting, when breaking hermetic limit but not from duration year / permanent or area boundary.
That have the downside that there is no spell mastery what especial for higher level effects that break the Hermetic Limit end up in many botch die.
(A botch with a Miraculous effect is quite troublesome as the score is then 0 what result in a big tragedy of hubris)
Its clear that the miraculous effects are still divine and only the divine realm add to the casting total as it is still the miraculous effect with holy magic just adding some power mostly at the cost of extra time (at last for invocation and meditation).

No matter the take one thing is clear with having to use the activation methode of the miraculous effect for holy music always take at last 1h to activate the effect even when using Holy Magic (although thanks to ceremonial casting this might take even longer).
Anyway I think both version of interpretation are fine and I'm ok with either of it. I just think the interpretation from me is more clean with the rules.

Edit: Finally found the warping rules for the divine! They are RoP:D 62
But instead of clear up any confusion they add more! For Miracles only the observer of effects => 30 gain a one time warp point while the affected and the invocer gain no warping points.
Below this is then Divine or Holy powers that only mention: "Holy powers, such as thos performed by Methodes and Powers will also causing Warping if the level of the power is 30 or greater"

91

I thought it might be helpful to illustrate my interpretation with an example.

Let's say you come across an injured man and want to help him get better. We'll assume you have Blessing 4, Holy Music 5, Artes Liberales 3, Philosophiae 3, Stamina +2, Presence +2, Creo 15, Corpus 16, and are in a Divine Aura of strength 3. You don't know any healing spells, so it has to be spontaneous.

First off, you always have the option to use your Powers and Methods, just like anyone else that has them, Gifted or not. Your score for invoking a miraculous effect is:

Effect Total = 2 (Presence) + 4 (Blessing) + 5 (Holy Music) + 3 (Aura) + Simple die = 14 + simple die.

Let's say you aim for a 15, knowing you can roll a 1 or better on the simple die. You need an effect that is +1 Touch, +3 Moon, and +0 Ind, for a grand total of +4. With a target of 15, that means you can go for a base 3 effect, which for Blessing is +9 Bonus to Recovery rolls. You need to follow all the rules for divine powers to gain this effect.

But you're a holy magus, and you have the Blessing Power. That means that you can use Blessing effects as spell guidelines. Healing is pretty clearly CrCo, so we'll go with that as a TeFo combo. Your CT is:

CT = 15 (Creo) + 16 (Corpus) + 2 (Stamina) + 3 (Aura) = 36

But since you're casting this spontaneously, you have to divide by either 2 or 5, depending upon whether you want to take fatigue or not. That's an 18 or a 7. Let's say that you don't mind fatigue and decide to cast it as a fatiguing spontaneous spell. That means you can add a stress die and divide by 2. We'll say you roll a 4, giving you a final total of:

Effect Total = (36 + 4)/2 = 40/2 = 20.

With the same +4 for Touch and Moon, you can spontaneously get an effect of +12 Recovery, slightly better than using your Powers and Methods. (Yes, I know you could have achieved the same effect if you rolled a 6 on your simple die with Powers and Methods).

But, it gets better. If you cast the spontaneous spell ceremonially, you can add your Blessing and Holy Music to the CT.

CT = 15 (Creo) + 16 (Corpus) + 2 (Stamina) + 3 (Aura) + 4 (Blessing) + 5 (Holy Music) + Stress die= 45 + stress die

We'll say you roll a 5 on the stress die and get a 50 CT. That gives us a final effect of:

Effect Total = (45 + 5)/2 = 50/2 = 25.

Now you get a +15 to the Recovery Roll, much better than you could manage just using a holy effect. However, because you are using the Blessing effects as a guideline and cast ceremonially, you must activate your Holy Music as if calling a holy effect.

But you have a third option. You could also cast a spontaneous spell using the standard CrCo spell guidelines. In this case, you use standard hermetic rules (as modified for holy magi). In that case, using ceremonial, fatiguing spontaneous casting you get the following:

CT = 15 (Creo) + 16 (Corpus) + 2 (Stamina) + 3 (Aura) + 3 (AL) + 3 (Philosophiae) + Stress die= 42 + Stress die.

Assume a +5 on the stress die and we have:

Effect Total = (42 + 5)/2 = 47/2 = 23.5.

You can manage a level 20 CrCo spell with this roll. Checking the guidelines, and assuming a +4 for Touch and Moon, we get a measly +9 bonus to Recovery rolls. You are clearly better off using the Blessing guidelines.

But it gets better. Afterward, you decide to invent a healing spell using the Blessing guidelines. You figure with your CrCo you can generally expect to make a 40 CT, so you learn the spell at level 40. That's a whopping +27 to the target's Recovery Roll (assuming the progression extends upward).

The next time you run into an injured person you use your holy spell instead. Your CT is:

CT = 15 (Creo) + 16 (Corpus) + 2 (Stamina) + 3 (Aura) + Simple Die (assuming no streess in casting) = 36 + simple die

Your spell will succeed no matter what, but if you roll less than a 4 on the simple die you'll lose a point of Fatigue. (Unlike a spontaneous spell, your formulaic spell can miss the target by up to 10 and the spell will still work, albeit with fatigue.) Since you are casting a spell and not activating a holy power, you do not suffer hubris if the roll fails. Rather, you follow the standard rules for rolling under on a spell you cast. You also have the benefit that, like any other holy magic spells you cast, you can use either a Divine Aura or a Magic Aura. You can also master this spell if you wish.

I hope that clears up my take on how holy magic uses holy power guidelines and doesn't just muddy the waters.

92

That's close to my interpretation, but not quite. As I see it, as a holy magus for you have multiple options of how to use the effects on the holy powers guidelines:

  • Use them as holy powers: in this case you use the standard rules for invoking holy powers
  • Cast them as non-ceremonial fatiguing spontaneous spells: In this case you divide your CT by 2, lose a fatigue, and do not add your Method and Power, but do not have to follow the restrictions of your Method (i.e., you can just cast the spell and don't have to sing for an hour or more).
  • Cast them as ceremonial fatiguing spontaneous spells: In this case you divide your CT by 2, lose a fatigue, do add your Method and Power, and do have to follow the restrictions of your Method (i.e., you do have to sing for an hour or more).
  • Cast them as non-ceremonial non-fatiguing spontaneous spells: In this case you divide your CT by 5, don't lose a fatigue, and do not add your Method and Power, but do not have to follow the restrictions of your Method.
  • Cast them as ceremonial non-fatiguing spontaneous spells: In this case you divide your CT by 5, don't lose a fatigue, do add your Method and Power, and do have to follow the restrictions of your Method.
  • Learn it as a formulaic/ritual spell: In this case you use your full CT. Strangely enough, you can't cast ceremonially, since it's not a spontaneous spell, so you can't add your Method and Power. You do not have to follow the restrictions of your Method, since you're casting this as a spell, not invoking a power. This spell will be formulaic or ritual depending upon a number of factors.

The default is that you cast the spells just as any normal spell. Only when the rules call out something different do you stray from the basic rules. And the rules don't say that holy magi use the rules for holy powers. They only call out a few places where the normal spellcasting rules are different.

That is correct.

If you use any of the options of casting them as a spell, you do so just as a holy magus would. In that case you can add either a Magic or Divine Aura to the roll. If you use it as a holy power, of course, you only add a Divine Aura.

Again, if you choose the option of casting as a holy magic spell, then you cast it as any other holy magic spell. Failing a roll will cost you fatigue, but should not trigger a tragedy of hubris.

I disagree for the reasons I've set forth in (possibly too much) detail above.

As I interpret things, holy magi gain access to some of the power guidelines, but otherwise treat those guidelines just as they would any other guideline. They design and cast spells using those guidelines just as they would for any other spell, save where the rules specifically call out something different (e.g., allowing you to add Method and Power instead of AL and Phil. for ceremonial spontaneous casting).

Again, I disagree.

I understand that holy magi cast spell based on holy power guidelines just like any other spell. If it's a ritual it costs vis and adds extra botch dice. The basic rules for determining whether it's a ritual apply (including Duration and Target). Also, there's an additional trigger for making a spell a ritual - breaking a Hermetic Limit. But that's not in place of other triggers for ritual status; it's in addition to those other triggers.

See above - I believe that you can master holy spell based on the holy power guidelines just like you can master any other spell.

That is very true - if you are invoking a holy power. But if you are using holy magic, I do not believe that a failure invokes a tragedy of hubris. So far as I can see, it's cast like any other holy magic spell, and the failure of a spellcasting roll is that you take fatigue and the spell might not work.

I disagree.

As I said above, holy magic allows you the neat ability to use the holy power guidelines as spell guidelines. It does not incorporate the holy power rules into holy magic. A holy magus should be able to use these new guidelines as he would any other guideline - to create a hermetic/holy spell (spontaneous, formulaic, or ritual). As such, he can add either a Magic Aura or a Divine Aura to his CT for that spell. In some circumstance he may use extra ceremony (ceremonial spontaneous magic or rituals), but in others he might not (formulaic or not-ceremonial spontaneous magic).

Again, I disagree.

I think that if you invent a holy magic spell based on a holy power guideline, it should be treated the same as any other spell created with the normal guidelines. It does not require extra time to cast, unless it's a ritual. Only when using ceremonial spontaneous casting or ritual casting do you need to sing, as per Holy Music.

I'm sorry to say that I disagree again.

I think the rules are very clear the way I interpret them. My interpretation is clean in that it follows the basic rules for casting spells (as modified by holy magic). These basic rules say that holy magi may use some holy power guidelines as spell guidelines. They do not say that you incorporate all of the holy power rules into holy magic. They just talk about allowing access to the guidelines. I agree that there are some very interesting rules for invoking holy powers. But those rules apply only to the use of Methods and Powers to invoke holy powers. They do not apply to holy spellcasting using holy power guidelines.

93

I'm fine with your interpretation as it give me more option as with my own interpretations and more important it allow me to avoid the tragedy of hubris when using Holy Magic for a miraculous effect.
(A single botch of a spell over lvl 30 can bring plague, war or famin to a whole region ... urks)
Will then add a number of seasons of spell /ritual inventing to my character for the guidelines I have access to. Beside just looked Ceremonial Casting is a mastery of he Cult of Hermes so no this option is not open for me.

94

Is the holy version of the sun duration Wizard's Communion compatible with the normal hermetic one? I think yes as there is nothing special written about this.
Although Paulos is not good in Muto Vim he still can invent a lvl 20 one and cast it without hitch in our aura (casting score of 19)

95

Wow, you have all the hard questions.

My gut tells me that yes, it should be compatible.

96

I have my first blessing based Spell invented (had 5 pts over because CrCo lab was 61 and I wanted a other lvl 25 spell)

05 CrCo Saint Martin's Ring Of Recovery Base 2 +1 Touch +2 Circle Gives +6 to the recovery of the people in the ring (Blessing)

only after I double checked I realised that the blessing guidelines is much better here then the heremtic one.

97

You'll probably want to give that spell a Moon Duration (+3) as well. Having it be Momentary doesn't do much good when you need to have the bonus apply during the entire recovery period. That would make it a CrCo 20 spell, which is still pretty good and non-warping.

98

Alas, you need to be under the influence of the spell for quite some time to get a bonus on a roll - this needs to be Moon.

99

you know that Circle duration and moon duration are incompatible?

100

Circle is a Target, Ring is the Duration counterpart to that. I had assumed that you were casting it as a Circle to hit a lot of people at once (i.e., targeting everyone in a circle).

Did you mean to have it Ring Duration so that you can draw a Ring around the injured person and they get the bonus so long as they don't leave the ring? (That would be a long time forced to stay in a ring.) In any case, Ring Duration is +2 not +1.