# Spell moderation: Stubborn objects

hello folks,

Thinking of two utility spells, which involve placing and holding an item. I was thinking that the effect could be used to create a temporary star, shelf, or hold an item until desired, or hold a door closed or open.

and then a variation to make the same effect last longer and be a tad stronger.

So, some variation on ReTe10 The Unseen Porter.

I'm not sure Strength has a linear scale, and that +5 * 10 = +50.

I would expect a log scale. Damage is +5 per magnitude, EF is +3 per magnitude.

Using that line of thought, I would expect "(combined strength of +8 or greater)". I'm not sure I like how weaksauce an extra magnitude is here, but that's how it looks.

EDIT: Of course, if it is logarithmic 10 people with Str+0 would be Str+3. That'd mean Str+8 requires 100 Str+2 individuals.

That also assume twice as strong is Str+1 and 10x as strong is Str+3 which is a little steep. What Strength should be twice as strong as Str+0?

Calculating the strength its either a complex formula, or a simple handwave. I wasn't sure about how to apply character/creature strength to a Rego spell's power. IMO adding a +1 Mag should add a significant amount of additional horsepower, or resistance to force.
Thinking of flying spells - a +1 Mag typically makes the target move a lot faster.

options:
(a) The strongest creature adds their strength value. Each additional participant adds their Strength attribute or +1 (whichever is greater). This means 5 people working together will gain a benefit from a 6th, even if that person is weak, but adding a stronger person grants a good bonus. It does mean that a +0 and +1 are "the same", but might be ok.

(b) Each person adds 1 + (Str/2 round down). Minimum contribution is zero. So weaker people struggle to add anything of value, but don't send the task backwards.

1. What's the definition of "ordinary creature"? Also, what's the difference between "immovable" and "almost immovable"?

2. The Encumbrance rules follow the same advancement pattern as Arts. Could you use that same scaling for this spell effect? Along the lines of Total Load of 15 = Burden of 5, which a +5 Strength drops to 0. A Total Load of 150 (15 * 10) = a Burden of 17 (by rounding 150 up to 153), needing a total strength of +17?

3. Can the spell affect a stone/metal object without the magnitude bumps mentioned in the ReTe guidelines? I realize it's probably in the same category as The Unseen Arm/Porter, but I don't think I've seen a reason for the exception mentioned anyplace.

Actually, I would probably just get rid of the entire "strength up to X can move the object up to Y"; instead, I would have stubborn objects simply be immobile for the duration, no matter how much force is exerted upon them. Of course, sufficient force will break the object, but up to that threshold it won't budge. I would use as guideline the Level 3 "control dirt in a highly unnatural fashion". Alternatively, I guess the Level 4 guideline for Muto Terram "change dirt so that is highly unnatural" should also work.

Note that there is ample precedent for even low level spells (in particular, wards) holding up the weight of entire mountains -- not moving or lifting such weight, but simply "resisting" it. Incidentally, Latin has two different words for "active" force that moves, and "passive" force that resists!

Can't remember how it scales, but there's an example of how to scale strength of a magic rego effect in Transforming Mythic Europe. It's in the magic as technology bit, talking about making mechanisms that drive grindstones etc.

I've checked Transforming Mythic Europe and it appears that a "generan" functions as a person or animal of Str +5 at Base 2. That would seem to be a fair amount of force or also a fair amount of resistance to force (see p 125 first column). Base 2 is akin to one horse power.

Then each Mag adds a ten fold increase in power. +1 mag is enough to move the axle of a heavily laden cart, and +2 is the equivalent of an average water wheel. I'll repost shortly using these guidelines instead but perhaps keep the 10 or 100 men scale too for demonstration.

Works for me, Love that book.

Thanks IBT, I had checked our copy here but forgotten to post <_< too much doing prep work for a tournament. Too many knights to give basic stats to!

Thank you too BlackLiger for the source too.
I had a followup thought that the Base 2 is using the "slightly unnatural" guideline but a floating immovable object is admittedly "highly unnatural" so needs base 3. For a moment there I thought the spells we're going to be lower level. Ah well.