Table talk (Bibracte)

So - what is the party line on Apollodorus, for the magi at Mons Electi? Did we ever discuss this (in character)?

Nope... :smiley: But some facts are known. His body was never recovered. Despite the terms in the Charter, can one prove murder without a body? And no one at the covenant has tried to summon his ghost, which in the paradigm should be haunting about...

I seem to remember that Viscaria wanted to bring in Cygna as a necromancer, but with all that went on, that probably wound up not happening...,or, at best, a stopover on their way home. I would imagine we would need a pretty buff necro just to get past his Form bonuses anyway.

Viscaria wanted Cygna for the confederate of Valerian who killed himself.

But you all know Wizard/Ritual Communion, so getting higher penetration isn't all that much of a problem.

Seems like we're having some trouble getting on the same page about how Voice Range spells work with variations in how loud the spells' words are spoken. This is an attempt to summarize what we agree upon (in the context of the Dimicatio, primarily) and what still needs to be determined (in the context of One More Unto the Breach, primarily). I don't have an emotional stake in the outcome; I'm just trying to understand the rules of engagement.

Let's first assume that there is nothing that is magically enhancing or inhibiting the magus's voice (no amplification or PeIm spells). Then I believe we have agreed upon the following. All quotes are from ArM5, page 112.

  • To be affected, a target must be within the distance that the magus's voice carries. RAW says: "Typically, firm words carry about 15 paces, while a shout carries about 50 ... a spell cast silently at this range can affect only the caster."
  • It is the words carrying that makes the spell work, not whether the target hears the words. "The range is based on the distance that the caster's voice carries, not on whether the target can hear it. Deaf targets, stones, targets in a noisy environment ... can all be affected at the normal range."
  • The voice that carries to the target does not have to consist of the Hermetic words for the spell; a shout will still establish the range necessary to affect the target. However, penalties for quiet words or no words will apply to the spellcasting total, in the absence of Obfuscating Casting. (I don't think RAW takes a position on this either way, but I think it's what we decided in the previous discussion. As with all of this, please tell me if you disagree.)

Now let's talk about situations where magic is present that changes how the magus's voice is heard.

  • You can't affect farther-away targets by magically making yourself louder. "Magical enhancement of the voice does not increase this range...."
  • RAW says: "... targets under the influence of PeIm spells that stop sounds from reaching them can all be affected at the normal range."
  • RAW also says: "However, if the caster is silenced or quieted by magic, the range is reduced. Such a spell must penetrate the caster's Magic Resistance."

To me the last sentence is a little bit confusing, especially compared to the second-to-last sentence. But here's my attempt at an interpretation.

  • If a magus produces spoken words normally, but the auditory species carrying the sound of his words are destroyed, relocated, or transformed, the spell still affects targets in the area where the voice would have normally carried, regardless of where the auditory species end up.
  • If a magus is under the effect of a spell (Muto Corpus, say) that makes him lose his voice, prohibits him from shouting, etc., (or makes him forget how to speak, or makes him afraid of the sound of his own voice ...), then the range is affected - in the same way as if the magus had voluntarily chosen to speak at the volume the spell forced him to use.

I welcome your thoughts, either in favor of or opposed to these interpretations.

All that makes sense. I still, however, am bothered if someone can cast a Voice-range spell without words (which normally takes a -10 penalty, and requires that the spell affect the caster only), but shout or say some gobbledygook while casting the spell (or at the end, which is effectively the same thing, imo) to extend the range of a wordlessly-cast spell. Something like this should require, I think, the Obfuscated Casting Mastery Ability. I think my proposal of requiring a Concentration check of 15+ was a reasonable remedy for the problem, but I seemed to be in the vast minority in that regard. I'm not going to say that it sounds like cheating or gaming the system, but it feels wrong to me somehow.

But if I'm alone in thinking that allowing someone to cast a spell with no words, incurring the -10 penalty, and allowing them to simply yell "Oppa!" at the end to avoid the "caster only" effective range listed in the chart on p. 83, so be it.

I am all in favor of the Shout option. In lots of fantasy fiction, there are instances of the wizard shouting or using words other than what would be associated with the spell. Like Doctor Strange. Some times he uses weird rhymes, and sometimes he just shouts the name of the spell or casts while making dramatic speech.
But maybe he has them all mastered. He is sorcerer supreme after all :wink:

This isn't about the shout, that issue has been decided. There is a contradiction in how sound/Voice works in RAW.

Yes, but Doctor Strange still kicks ass. 8)

I think it is quite clear by the rules on ArM 112. When sound is destroyed you can only effect yourself but you must penetrate your MR to do so ( because it is not personal range or touch). I see nothing ambiguous about that.

Just trying to understand the dynamic here. So Tranquillina destroys all sound in the room. It's a T:Room target so everything in the room has its sound destroyed. Then Isen, Tranquillina and the giants can each resist the effect and have their sounds carry through the room?

I don't think so, because the species you emit are separate from you, and you are not your species (if I understand the whole 'species" thing right). Basically, it's why you can see something that's CrIm without it worrying about your Resistance. The spell targets the species you emit, which are non-magical and are not part of your Corpus or Mentem or whatever.

((I have no idea why this double-posted, I don't remember hitting submit twice or getting any of the error messages that normally lead to cloning.))

Not quite. This is just talking about range: voice spells. If a PrIm is cast at target room, then any VOICE ranged spells can only can effect the caster but must go against MR.

Now that all sound is destroyed, if the Giant wakes up and casts Pit of Gaping Earth it can only effect himself ( and he can not resist). Same with any other voice range spell. If he cast Fit of Shattering at Isen hoping to destroy his armor it could only effect the Giant ( but would fail because the Giant is not the Target.)

The plan worked up between gerg and The Fixer, and I'll say that I bear some fault in this, because of what was going on in the Dimicatio, was that they would teleport into the room, Tranquillina will kill all the sound in the room, and Isen would cast Call to Slumber on the Giant. Since Call to Slumber is a voice spell, it must be cast spontaneously, with touch range, instead. Does that seem to be a reasonable understanding?
What if we left the Range:Voice intact and allowed Isen to touch the giant (which I did this time, but won't do in the future, unless we call that reasonable)? Technically that's not legit, right, or wrong, or we decide it's right? With a lot of this, I don't have any dog in the hunt, you guys tell me what mechanics you're happy with, and I'll play it.

And that's only if the spell is cast Wordlessly, I think. If you try to cast a spell normally (i.e. with normal Words and Gestures), it's automatically going to fail, because the words that help gather the magic don't do anything.

Not as I read it.

That is very specific. There is no mention of wordless casting for this part. That is earlier in the paragraph where it states that a voice ranged spell cast silently can only effect the caster.

I disagree with what happened at Dimicatio but I had no dog in that hunt ( as it were). IMHO, to cast voice range spells on someone other than yourself, you must make a sound. That is very clear from RAW.

I generally did, too. I don't mind characters being sneaky. I dislike players being sneaky. There is a huge difference. I probably responded poorly, I know what I did was passive-aggressive in nature. The point is still valid, if players are going to have their characters do something sneaky to trick me as the SG, that's a problem. When it was presented initially in the Dimicatio as casting without words, no mention was made of any sound to carry the spell. So, I made an assumption that there was no sound, and that Voice range spells could carry to how far one's voice could reach. That had implications to another story, Unto the Breach, so I carried that understanding there.

Like I said, I don't care how it's resolved. I had some part in creating this mishegoss, certainly. But when players make assumptions on how things work, and aren't explicit and extremely detailed, I either have to stop and ask questions or make some inferences on what is actually happening. From without words, I inferred casting silently. I have a problem with the whole shout thing. When I am reading something or concentrating on something (like writing) and my wife is talking to me, I'll often repeat a word I just read or thought about, if I'm writing. I don't think it should be easy, IMO, to concentrate on casting a spell and then get it down range with some rebel yell. But, if the players want to play that way, I couldn't care less. You guys just need to figure it out and let me know. This is part of creating the world you live in, and it is entirely reasonable for the troupe to have a say in it. Just remember, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

On to another matter.

After this weekend I will be posting sparsely until after Christmas. I'm traveling Monday night to Disney World ( yeah!!) for 4 days of princesses and excited kids. Then I'm back for 1 day before I drive 6 hours to my mothers for Christmas with my sister's family.

Dec 27th I will be closer to normal.

Any threads that NEED me either need to get moving or relax with some eggnog.

I'll be chilling with eggnog, probably. I'm almost always busiest this time of year.
My general grouchiness probably stems from me trying to keep all of my commitments to the games I'm playing, this one, my job, and family. When I try and cram too much to do, I generally get cranky, and right now, I'm cranky.

So, I'm not stepping away, but I am stepping back a bit...