[Table Talk] Build Your Covenant!

I would say for utility, go for the spell. For story, send out the consortis, we're hiring masons! :slight_smile:


So... both?

Or is the decision ours? D has no preference, no position on how her time is spent?

Shorter amount of time to build. 2 seasons = 1 stone tower, of equal volume to Mystic Tower. We've the stone nearby, and the wood. We've got the cash as well. Saves on vis, too.

Send out the consortis!


Due to his currently ambiguous position within the Covenant, Colin will have to be asked to provide hardware for doors and such, rather than volunteering.

As it stands, he knows Mathias and Angus. Only a brief (off-stage) intro to Fabrica. Otherwise, he has spent the last two days getting his family settled and looking over the land he received as part of his contract.

Someone else (Krys, CH, maybe Brutus) will have to kick-start his participation in the endeavor.


IC, Daggin had, early in the exchange on the above topic, volunteered to find some mundane talent, rather than work in the lab for a season, if that was seen as preferable by the Council. Colin would seem like a likely first stop.

OOC, he could probably be convinced to coordinate/oversee the project - altho' he has no specific Craft/Profession skills to that end, it would feed into his character, if handled properly.

(But you didn't hear it from me!) :stuck_out_tongue:

Altho' he's never built a tower, he's certainly lived in enough- how tough can it be for one born to status? :unamused: :wink:

And remember, Conner Mac Conner is a Cooper... if we need any coopering doing.

2 words:

Beer, & More Beer.

On a more serious note...

There's been a query in the forums about a rule in City & Guild, that one can construct things with Rego.

Does anyone here have C&G? Should we consider inventing a spell, or could a series of Spont spells cover some of our stonework problem??? I'll guess that no one here has a very high Finesse, so with a Finesse of, say, 2, the average Craft rolle (Finesse -3) would be ~4-5. How much could we do with that?

I am getting my copy this weekend.

That being said, Rego Crafting has been used a fair amount in the other saga I am playing in.

Each spell, spont or otherwise, requires a PER+Finesse roll. It need not be a stress roll unless you are being hurried. If you want to do something exceptional, take the stress roll and the attendent risk.

For simple stone blocks and posts, I would say this falls into the "Simple" category which requires a PER+Finesse roll of 6 or better (serf's Parma). So with a PER of 2 and Finesse of 3, a magus can dress several hundred stone blocks of the same shape in fairly short order with minimal rework.


Any mage here have a Per+Fin close to 5+, and a decent Rego Terrem total?

(Not Daggin, not by a long shot.)

(Does ReTe even matter? If so, what total would we be looking for?)

Not Mathius either.

ReTe matters very much. No books, but as I recall the guidelines for rego crafting with stone are something like

Level 2: Shape an amount of dirt
Level 3: Shape and treat an amount of dirt (like baking clay into a pot or coloring glass and so forth)

Similar for Animal and Herbam.

Add 1 magnitude for stone and 2 for metal (or something like that)

Keep in mind, all raw materials must be on hand and the usual rules for individual, size, and group apply. Duration only needs to be momentary. And you can't kill anything with Rego Crafting magic. The animal or tree or vegetable must be dead first.

A tower stone is probably a +1 size compared to Individual of 1 cubic foot (?) so if all of the above is correct -- a big "if" -- then we have the following:

A Well Cut Stone, ReTe 5
Base:2 (shape dirt)
Material: Stone instead of dirt (+1)
Range: Touch (+1)
Dur: Momentary (+0)
Target: Individual (+0)
Size: 10 cu. ft. block (+1)

A Day At The Stonecutter's, ReTe 20
Base & Material: 3 (shape stone)
Range: Voice (+2)
Target: Group (+2)
Size: 10 cu. ft. blocks (+1)

Each spell requires a PER+Finesse roll of 6 or better to succeed.

So, I don't have Stephan's sheet with me, but I think his PER+Finesse is 5 and I don't think his ReTe is better than 15 at this point and this is something that I wouldn't want to botch in a spont.

Let me double-check this evening.


Yeah, it could just fracture, or it could start flying around like a Terram frag grenade or a granite cannon ball. Too much fun.

Question is, is cutting stone like this "natural", or what?

Me, I'd say "slightly unnatural" - most stones don't fracture evenly and smoothly along straight edges at precise angles.* And, for regular, consistent stones of a precise size, we want some precision, for another Magnitude - perfectly square stones are of less use if each is a slightly different size. (more like a peasant's hut than a tightly fit castle wall. Being conservative here, just in case.)

So, with that info...

A Well Cut StoneReTe 5
Base: 2 (shape dirt slightly unnatural), Touch +1, Stone +1, precision +1)So, same result, if different math.

With a +4 Aura, plus the ever-popular strong voice/gestures, (and assuming only +1 from the die-roll), one only needs Te+Fo+Stam = 3 for a level 5 spell, once every couple minutes to rest up. Far faster than any (non-magically enhanced) master mason.

Hell, even Daggin can do that. :unamused: :stuck_out_tongue:

(And for another magnitude, Te+Fo+Sta = 13 for the Level 10, and that's not really all that challenging (Int 2 + 5 Te + 5 Fo + 1 misc.) This couldn't do the above Group spell, but could add one more magnitude of Precision, which would never be a bad thing, or go for "very unnatural" if something intricate were desired*.)

Per + Finesse... is another matter. Even a few bad stones can be a pain, and cause a fatal flaw in the foundation of a structure. Hmmm...

(* Re "natural" vs "slightly unnatural", etc.
I'm approaching it like this: if a stone broke with a straight, exactly 90 degree corner, what would most people say that is? At least "slightly unnatural". I would have to think that a carved stone, such as a statue or lattice or carved cap, would be "very unnatural", since those are the only 3 points on the scale - "none", "mid", and "high".)

Could always go the other route, create some molds for stone then MuTe the stone into a liquid and pour it in. Like what we were initially discussing.

Stone to liquid
Mu(Re)Te 10
base 3 (turn dirt into a liquid)
stone +1
touch +1
part +1
mom +0

As the magus finishes casting the spell they touch a cliff-face or outcrop of stone. The stone turns into liquid, flowing into the container the magus is touching with their other hand.

This will allow us to create stone blocks of any size or shape without worrying about botching a finesse roll.

We could get the cooper to create some square contraptions which can hold a liquid but be pulled apart. After the spell has ended the sides can be removed and the stone carted away. We could even put a wagon (or whatever) next to the wall and form the stone on it.
As it is a spont most of the magi will be able to do it - Mathius won't be able to. Like most verdi he has a problem with spont magic.

Mathius could build this into a pipe, so that stone "melts" at one end and flows out the other. Though most of the stone cutting would probably be done by then anyway.

Yep. Either or both.

(The "liquid stone" trick guarantees consistent stones, and so long as the mold is precise so are they.)

We also talked about making a simple enchanted item that does the job for us- less rolls for botching, and no magus needs to be present at the work site.

(Imagine what a master mason could do with a small Perdo Terrem chisel, or the cooper with a Muto Herbem device to make wood "bendable" for Diam, or whatever.)

(I think the Rego stuff actually builds the tower, eventually, even without any mundane workers. Between all of these, we should be able to get the job done.)

CH/Daggin here.

Just posted the Vis stores and vis sources in Covenant Details.

Covenant Details: Vis

Randomized the stores a bit, so they're not in nice and neat 5/10/15/20 pawn lots. The total amounts, and the general previous weighting is the same. (I didn't put any preference into it - that's just the way the dice fell.)

Also formalized the (9!) vis sources, with hard definitions, and locations and times of harvest. Note that one "3" source became a d6/year, and "3" source became a d3/year, with the extra "average" point going into Creo. The total sum/year harvested is the same (actually up .5/year, on average, 35.5.)

(I'd prefer to see fewer sources, and a few larger ones, if only by a couple, but it's hardly a dealbreaker.)

(imo, 3 significant holes are a lack of Rego, Aquam and especially Vis vim sources, tho' stores are decent in all, enough for a season at least.)

Excellent! Thanks CH.

Some months later...

Before I move to the main purpose of this post, Steve - at one time, we had 3 boons left, and it was suggested to use one and bump the Aura way up to +4 - did that ever get SG approval???

Also, before it gets lost (again), here's another question I found:
Angus might have a longevity potion documented in with the Lab Texts, which would be about Level 40. Me, I didn't want to toss 30 or 40 Levels at an NPC, but that might be another SG fiat addition?

OK, we need to come together and finish the Library.  Just to keep it all together, thought I'd post here.  Don't be intimidated by the length- most of all that is the sum of all the info we've accumulated so far, just for reference.

(Verticius/Kurt disappeared about the same time I did- we had suggested working together to finish off the Lib, but nothing ever came of that. ) 

First off, I remember reading something about someone studying Aquam last season, and maybe some other Summa study.  If that Summa, and any others that got thus "defined" last season, could be mentioned below, that'd be a start.

So, at minimum, there are 3 tasks at hand and the Lib's finished, the latter two inter-related: #1 is allocating the Arts into the Art Summa (and Tract) Scores that we have - we know how "big" that part of the Lib currently is, we just have to label the values with names of Arts.  Verticius already made a sound suggestion for approaching some of that- I'll address that below.

#2 is dividing the Tractati we have into Abilities or Arts, and then labeling those, and 

#3 is finalizing the Ability Summa we have- almost finished, but there were some questions.Verticius/Kurt Posted:

[i]"...Just wanted to bring up the idea that the library should show a bias to the previous members' particular interests. ... Steve, if you could guide us on that, please.[/i]

(These were from descriptions of our predecessors, and is as good a starting point as any other, and far less OOC than many.  Not what "I" personally would prefer to see, nor my magi, but solid IC for the Covenant imo.)

[b]Predecessors, and their "preferred" Arts:[/b]Torsten (Verditius) - Terrem! (Creo? Rego? Muto?)
Kallias Delphinus (Jerbiton mariner) - Aquam, Aurum (Creo? Rego? Intellego? Imagonem?)
Sylphie (healer, ex Misc.) - Corpus!, Creo! (Mentem?)
Glendower (Bonisagus) - Intellego!, Vim!
Mab (Merenita/fae) - Muto? Herbem? Animal?
Dierdre (Flambeau) - Creo!, Rego & Ignem!That's "best guess" for some, but it would yield something like this:[color=indigo][u]Strong[/u]: Creo, Intellego, Rego; Corpus, Ignem, Terrem, Vim
[u]Solid[/u]: Muto, Aquam, Aurum, Herbem
[u]Dubious[/u]: Perdo, Animal, Imagonem, MentemAnd one of those had (randomly?) been lost and replaced by a weaker Summa (the Lvl 5 - see below).  How does that look?  (Not "How does that look for your individual mage character?", but as a reasonable interpretation of a pre-existing Arts library!)

(Edit- went ahead and did a placement, with [color=indigo]Arts in purple, below, to see how it looks)

Mundane Library: We have a few [u]very[/u] good texts ("the classics"), but other than that we mostly have nothing special, except that they were written by people who, usually, knew what they were talking about.  If we want to claim that we have a "great" Library, we need about another 200 pts in there, or a third that just to pad it a bit with lesser works.  [i](However, there's a cryptic notation by the mundane library, [color=blue]in blue, that we got 145 more points for 12 more texts- Kryslin- do you remember that?  As listed, those points are not incorporated!)[/i]

Steve- I know we have some left-over points, right? If those are in that 145, cool - if not, can we spend that to get some depth to the breadth we already have?  (See old comments, beneath Library chart, below)


Here are the previous postings, for reference:

[color=indigo][size=134]reposted from [b]The [u]Mark III[/u] attempt at the Points Expenditure[/b][/size]

[color=blue][u][b]Suggested ARTS:[/b][/u]

[i](EDIT: ARTS suggestion deleted- see updated suggestion for Arts Allocation in post, below)[/i]

[b][u]Tractati[/u][/b] (Arts and/or Abilities, mixed) 
(To write, Qual = 6+Comm, so ~6-7 are going to be common.)
(85 pts, 12 texts)
[color=red][i](-3 bks, -20 pts)[/i]o Q11 
o Q9
o Q8
o Q8 - Great Weapon, "The Art of the PoleArm", Ch. 1 only, w/ illustrations.  Trans. from the Italian
o Q7
o Q7
o Q7
o Q6
o Q6
o Q6
o Q5
o Q5 
o Q3 [i](Very weak- Possibly a Supernatural Ability, or written by an Incomprehensible Author, and/or a corrupted (poorly copied) copy to explain low quality)[/i]

[b][u]Abilities Summae[/u][/b]
(345, 20 texts)
[color=blue](+145 pts, +12 texts)

[color=darkred][u][b]Summae List, Alphabetical by Ability[/b][/u]
o Area Lore: Eire land L2 Q8 "A Pilgrim's Journey", with insightful observations on places, personages and legends. 
o Area Lore: Europe L4 Q7A vast but unorganized collection of various Maps & Notes 
o Artes Liberales L3 Q21 Original Author, w/ later commentaries, an exceptional work 
o Civil & Canon Law L2 Q9 
o Code of Hermes L3 Q12 Learned Commentaries from several noted Quasitores on various Tribunal rulings & precedents 
o Common Law L2 Q5 A collection of disorganized notes for an unfinished text
o Faerie Lore L2 Q7 Mab's own brief & incomprehensible attempt to educate the locals 
o Finesse L3 Q8 "The Subtleties of Magical Craftwork as Art" 
o Folk Ken L2 Q10 "Of the Foolishness of Apprentices" 
o Language: Norman French L2 Q16 The Tongue of Nobles in England and NW France 
o Magic Lore L3 Q7  Grotesques & Phantastiques
o Magic Theory L5 Q10 A thoughtful and in-depth text by a noted Bonisagus 
o Organization Lore: Local Nobles* L2 Q5 Being an account of a local coronation(?), with commentary on those attending.  (Not as recent as it might be.)
o Orgnization Lore: Local Church* L1 Q5 Being an account of a local coronation(?), with commentary on those attending.  (Not as recent as it might be.)
o Organization Lore: Hibernian Tribunal L3 Q12 Covenants, Praecos, Redcaps, main figures, & customs, etc 
o Parma L3 Q7 "Parodoxes of Parma" - Only a Criamon would write such.  Incomprehensible cuts Study Totals in half.  
[i]This book is as controversial as it is sought after, and some Quasitors seek to rule all copies should be burned.  It would be a High Crime to allow it to fall into the hands of any mundane.[/i]
o Penetration L2 Q9 "The Vulnerabilities of Might"
o Philosophia L5 Q17 Aristotle, in translation 
o Prof: Scribe L2 Q10 Calligraphy & technique
[i](* These two "texts" are combined into one rambling narration, contributing in part to the poor Quality.)[/i]

[color=red]The subjects that are not represented in this suggested version (with apologies) include:*  Organization Lore: Order of Hermes
*  Infernal Lore
*  Domain Lore
*  Medicine (a standard for a lot of Hermetic research as well)
*  Music
*  X Supernatural Ability (which I had wanted to represent)
*  Ettiquette
*  Additonal Languages, living or dead
*  Theology (we ARE in a high-church area)
*  Teaching
*  A book [u]written[/u] in a different language than Latin!!!  Greek?  Hebrew?  Islaamic?  The local tongue?  Norman French??? (another realistic story device.)
Some others that were included in the "final" table, above, are not of great use or popularity- those represent an imperfect world.  Others are more for reference than study, or at least as much one as the other - the maps, for instance, and the law and Lores.


Re various Tractati- yeah, now that you mention it, we DO have a Lib that is great at lower levels, but no real scholar would ever get excited about it in any subject (a dozen Tract's don't cut that.) So, yeah (sigh), we better shift back that way a bit... somehow... (ugh)

Seems like we've been patting ourselves on the back for our "excellent" library, but have focused only on breadth, not depth. (sigh) (again)

(But how?! Where do we scrape up another 85 points for another dozen tractati???) :(

Well, that's the trade off- do we go "depth" on one Ability, and forego some of our Breadth? (Personally, I think the Covenant has all the "basics" covered- that's not a necessity, but it's a highly "functional" Library as opposed to one that actually attracts scholars.

Kryslin Posted, in response:


Generalized Library, given that the specialties of the previous magi cover nearly all the techs and forms, and a wide range of skill. Mundane scholarship is a tradition in the region, I would suspect that Arcane scholarship for magi would be as well. Chances are, you've got one of the better libraries on the isle as it stands, though there might be a few books in the numerous monastic collections that are better on the classical subjects.


(double post)

[color=darkred]Quick and Dirty Solution
(aka "Agh, not again- won't someone just deal with this?!")

Previous Input:
(Or just take my word for it and skip down to suggested final tally)

Known Texts used:
Rhiannon- Creo
qcipher/Fabrica - Aquam book of L10, Q 15

That almost meshes with my suggestions above, tho' I don't know where the large Muto comes from (Mab?) and I would think Glendower would have insisted on a big Intellego. Also Animal (Mab again? not Herbem?) and Mentem - that far off with my suggested breakdown, Krys? Kallias- no Aquam/Aurum? Where do the Herbem/Animal/Mentem come from so strong?

I'm seeing Creo as the most popular here: Dierdre and Sylphie certainly would emphasize Creo, and possibly Kallis (for weather) and Torsten (for creation of "stuff"). Rego is always popular as well. So, since Rhiannon stated she's studying Creo and didn't want the "best" (ahem), I see no reason not to make Creo a close 2nd best, and put Rego at the top, with the other Techniques falling in place below those.

For the Forms, Ignem (Dierdre), Vim (Glendower), Terrem (Torsten) and Corpus (Sylphie, everyone loves a Healer, & Longevity for All) are locks for "Top 4", as those are largely one-Form magi. Of Animal, Herbam, and Mentem, I see these as less focused, and additionally one of those could be the one "recently replaced" text (warped fun with Mab & her Animal friends?)


[size=150][color=indigo]Suggested Final Allocation of Arts, Tractatus and New Summae[/size]

(So this is the part to read, weigh, and comment on!)

Techniques:o L20 Q11 color=green [color=indigo]Rego
o L18 Q10 [color=indigo]Creo
o L15 Q15, L 5 Q18 color=green [color=indigo]Intellego (x2: Glendower)(slightly faster study up to Level 5)
o L13 Q19 [color=indigo]Muto
o L10 Q16 [color=indigo]PerdoTho' swapping Intell and Creo could work as well.

Forms:o L18 Q12 color=green [color=indigo]Ignem
o L16 Q 9, L 8 Q17 color=green [color=indigo]Vim (x2: Glendower) (significantly faster study up to Level 8)
o L15 Q 8 color=green [color=indigo]Terrem (weakest quality, slower study)
o L14 Q11 color=green [color=indigo]Corpus

o L12 Q18 [color=indigo]Herbem
o L12 Q10, L10 Q15 [color=indigo]Aquam (x2 due to plain random luck) (faster study up to Level 10)
o L11 Q17 [color=indigo]Aurum
o L10 Q11 [color=indigo]Mentem
o L 8 Q21 [color=indigo]Imagonem (High Qual = fast study!)
o L 5 Q12 [color=indigo]Animal (Low Level, replacement for lost text)
color=green denotes additonal [color=green]Tractatus in this ArtIf the Healer (and/or Glendower and/or the Jerbiton) also had Mentem, we could bump Mentem to around Herbem, and let everything else slide down (except Aquam- that's locked by use from last season.) That would hammer any Aurum that the Jerbiton Mariner had, and make the lower half look something like this:o L12 Q18 [color=indigo]Mentem
o L12 Q10, L10 Q15 [color=indigo]Aquam (x2 due to plain random luck) (faster study up to Level 10)
o L11 Q17 [color=indigo]Herbem
o L10 Q11 [color=indigo]Aurum
o L 8 Q21 [color=indigo]Imagonem (High Qual = fast study!)
o L 5 Q12 [color=indigo]Animal (Low Level, replacement for lost text) Either way.

The dozen Tract' we had already allocated with points are (currently) divided between Arts and Abilities.

[b][u]Tractati[/u][/b] (Arts and/or Abilities, mixed) 
(To write, Qual = 6+Comm, so ~6-7 are going to be common.)o Q11 ART - Vim
o Q9 - [b]Magic Theory[/b]
o Q8 ART - Intellego
o Q8 - [b]Great Weapon[/b], "The Art of the PoleArm", Ch. 1 only, w/ illustrations.  Trans. from the Italian
o Q7 - [b]Teaching[/b] (in Norman French) - La Methode Socratique
o Q7 ART - Rego
o Q7 - [b]Lore[/b] (Infernal? Dominion?)
o Q6 ART - Corpus
o Q6 - [b]Premonitions[/b] "The Interpretation of Dreams"
o Q6 ART - Ignem
o Q5 - [b]Area Lore: Loch Leaghan Tribunal[/b]
o Q5 ART - Terrem
o Q3 - [b]Sense Holy/Unholy[/b] (orig Q6, incomprehensible cuts total in half) 
+145 new pts to add to Summae and Tractatus:

New Summae:
[i](See also [color=darkred][u]Summae List, Alphabetical by Ability[/u] in post above)[/i]
Pts  Lvl/Qual
18 - L3 Q5 [b]Domain Lore[/b]
27 - L3 Q8 [b]Medicine (in Greek)[/b]
20 - L2 Q6 [b]Language- Anglish[/b] as She is Spoked
27 - L3 Q8 [b]Ettiquette[/b]
26 - L2 Q8 [b]Area Lore- Stonehenge Tribunal[/b] (Norman French) Un Narratif d'Angleterre 
[i]= 118 pts
+27 pts of 145 remaining:[/i]

New Tractatus:
Q9 - [b]Music[/b]
Q7 - [b]Code of Hermes[/b] (supplements existing Summa)
Q6 - [b]Faerie Lore[/b] (supplements existing Summa)

[i]...and a +1 Increase in the [u]Levels[/u] of 5 existing Summa:[/i]

o Philosophia L5 -> L6
o Magic Theory L5 -> L6
o Parma L3 -> L4
o Penetration L3 -> L4
o Artes Lib's L3 -> L4

Phew!  OK- How's that?  Any suggestions, speak up, or all in favor say "Hell yes!"

(And, on top of that, K has muttered about a stash of several additional Tractatus on Magic Theory, and tossed in a comment somewhere about yet one more minor Summa on Intellego.  All to the good to create a "big" library, if not one artificially maximized.)