Table Talk - Development

A note on Boxer's character, as I checked the Nature Lore MINOR virtue:

Thus, by the RAW, a character could take 2 minor virtues:

  • Nature Lore
  • Puissant Nature Lore.

Now, Boxer wanted to take a MAJOR virtue which worked as this for 3 lores, with no effect on the others.
Yes, this saved him some XP: A score of 9 (225XPs) would apply equally to all the 3 lores, but to no other lore.

But, for the same 3 points he could just as well take the minor virtue nature lore, with affinity: Nature lore, puissant nature lore, and reach 10 with 183 XPs. This'd give him 12 in forest lore, and 9 in all other lores.

So, to me, boxer was already crippling his character.

Taking Puissant Wilderness lore would make him reach a score 7 (+2) for 140XPs. What a saving. 1 virtue saved him 43 XPs. Slightly less than warrior, educated...

But now, things get worse.
He actually proposed to have 3 different abilities deriving from his major virtue (Wilderness lore: forest, WL: Mountains, and WL: I don't remember), to which he'd apply his Puissant WL ability.
So, to reach the above score of 7 (+2) in all 3 lores, he'd have to spend 3*140 = 420XPs and 4 virtue points. Instead of 183 and 3 virtue points if he went the raw route.
And still, IIRC, marko was afraid of his Puissant Wilderness lore? :wink: :laughing:

Of course, for 5 virtue points, he could take affinity with WL.
That way, he'd reach 7(+2) for 93 XPs if having only one skill. 90XPs saved other the RAW route, at the cost of 2 virtues. And he'd be inferior on 1 terrain, and only skilled in 3.
Or... 3*93 = 279 XPs if using his 3 skills option... Still more than the 183 by the raw.

At this point, I can only see 3 possibilities:

  • I made a grevious mistake somewhere in my calculations
  • The man is a saint
  • He's a masochist

It only says : "Personnal Wards (Warding Spells with parameters of Personnal/Sun/Individual rather than touch/ring/circle) are also very commonly used to protect either against weapons or againts supernatural creatures".

Why would magi who rely on "non-magical, physical attacks" would use these to "emphasize magical defense rather than offense" would use these, if these went down at their first attack?

They'd still use Xavi's wards with joy, but never this.

Well, it seems logical to me, given the way MR works.

The animated sword is resisted because of the Rego magic on it.
With the gauntlet, it had no magic on it, and thus, it isn't resisted.
This would work with the hilt, IMO, although this'd require a Target: Part spell.

That opens a huge box of worms.

Anyway, for me, defensive spells are much along the lines of a Xavi ward. I use Ward against Heat & Flames, Gift of Bear's Fortitude, Howl of the Steel Weapons, stuff like that which adds to my soak or defense. These do not collapse, but they may need to penetrate (if you wanna wrestle an efreet that is :wink: )

I’m OK to bean count when I have the time. :smiley:. Sort of interesting to see what comes out of it when you do.

Marie looks better to me now, although I don’t have time to look her over (my own character plus that real life stuff). If anyone missed it and is curious, I did some math on her on page 13 – the weird pre-Gauntlet XP thing mostly works out, numbers wise. Spells and vis were the sticky wicket. I’m not sure how this revision will look, need to go over it some other time.

I believe we are reading Nature Lore differently. Let’s see if I can put us on the same page. My reading of the text is that a person with Nature Lore: Forests can use that nature lore in any forest, anywhere in Mythic Europe, but she takes a -3 penalty UNLESS she uses it in THE (one, specific) forest where she first learned Nature Lore (That Forest By My House As A Child, The Black Forest, The Lollipop Forest, etc). This ties nature lore people to their home, but makes them very powerful there (but not useless elsewhere). I think this is what the RAW are saying, supported by the remarks about Area Lore – area lore is for a place, not a terrain. So Nature Lore: Forests (with home region Black Forest) can also be used as Area Lore: Black Forest.

I believe your argument is that a person with Nature Lore: Forests can use ANY Nature Lore, anywhere in Mythic Europe, but if the place she happens to be is not a forest she takes a -3 penalty. This is obviously much more powerful, and not the way that I read the text.

Hi,

slow nod This ruling is fair, and I'm cool with it. It also precludes me from doing the signature thing I envisioned when Buttercup first popped into my head, the whole Enchanted cleaning scene. I'm ok with that; maybe Buttercup doesn't quite fit.

I'm going to come up with something else, maybe retaining some ideas.

When I get home, I'll post her pre-apprenticeship song list, er, treatment, er, background, since I've already written it.

Anyway,

Ken

LOL, if you attract wild critters to, say, a garden, and prevent them from being domesticated, then you are all good. This place needs someLight anyway :smiley:

I understand fully that the plateau and castle are not considered wilderness, but I think you either missed or completely misunderstood the point I was making in that regard. :confused:

well, restate it another way perhaps?

I have writer’s (designer’s?) block with Inigo today, so I did some of that promised bean counting. I had a chance to take a look at both Marie and Octavian

Marie
Way to clean her up! You even did vanilla generation from Gauntlet, which is great.

Virtues and Flaws: Marie has 11 points of Virtues (+3 for the MMF and 8 minor Virtues) and 9 points of Flaws(-3 No Hands, -3 Driven, and 3 minor flaws). These obviously need to balance, so take a look at that. If “Major Magical Focus: Telekinesis” was a typo and you actually meant minor MF, then you’re fine at +9/-9.

From what I saw going back through and double checking your math, she appears to be A-OK for everything else. At first I was worried because compared to before she had slightly more EXP, 42 more levels of spells, and a talisman, but I see you also made her two years older, so that appears to balance fine. If there are V&F issues, take a look at those, and other than that, looks great to me!

Octavian:
Great job. This was a pleasure to read – I’d love to see it condensed as a narrative, which I think Mark has requested anyway. I’m working on that myself. Since you’ve posted him at Gauntlet, let’s take a look at him then first.

Here are my rough counts.
Averages at Gauntlet:
Early Childhood: 125 (including Native Language)
Later Life: Looks like he was taken at age 14, so that’s 9 years of later life. 9x15=135.
Apprenticeship: 240 XP, 120 levels of spells
Total: 500, and 120 levels of spells

Actual Totals at Gauntlet:
Abilities: 290
Arts:140
Total: 430, and 115 levels of spells.

Looks like you shorted yourself a bit starting at Gauntlet. If you want, go back, fix that, and grab for more power like a good Tremer- er. Sorry, slip of the tongue. :stuck_out_tongue:

Now let’s take a peek at his EXP in 1220:
Exp at Gauntlet: 500
Years Post Apprenticeship: 14x40=560
Total: 1060

Actual Totals:
Exp in Abilities: 630
Arts: 272
Total: 902.
Average EXP/year post Gauntlet: 36

Even accounting for the loss of 70 exp at Gauntlet, looks like you lost out on some exp in here as well. Granted, he got some mystery initiations did other stuff, which messes with this somewhat, but it does look like you’ve shortchanged yourself a bit – you’d be fully justified to go back and be a bit more generous, maybe on adventures or in those early years. If you want to leave him as he is, his development is fully realistic (and really well written, kudos!), so I have no qualm, but it looks like the math says you’re entitled to more if you want it, so… :smiling_imp:.

It looks like his spells and talisman are still under development, which would affect this somewhat as well.

Thanks for the kudos. I initially put it as a narrative but ended up deleting the post gauntlet stuff after seeing Mark's post for Carmen. I can go back and rewrite it though.

Actually he officially began apprenticeship at 9. I accidentally posted the age at start of game instead of at gauntlet on that sheet. Later life would be 4*15 = 60

So I think I am 5 spell levels short, but 5 skill xp too high? Thanks for the corrections however. I'll redo the totals to fit. Personally I'm more familiar with 4th edition so I'm actually fairly happy I was pretty close all things considered. Mark can confirm I had trouble getting around the post-gauntlet progression xp as we can see below as it was the first time I was actually using the rules.

Having fixed the exp at gauntlet to 425 XP would make it to 985 total XP with 1 initiation season and 2 seasons of tutoring by mentor for spells. To my understanding, we "lose" 10 XP for each season of laboratory in inventing spells/initiations/lab work so thats mean that the 3 seasons taken up take off -30 xp from the total.

Now, what results in my confusion is the section in the post-apprenticeship advancement section that encourages magi to learn spells later in life to capitalize on higher art scores and thus getting more spells levels during study. Does this mean that the spells learned would be subtracted from the 40 XP/season or do they not count against the total since the 10 XP was removed for the season of study?

Thanks again for the kudos. I'll go back and tweak him a bit more. In hindsight I think he's lacking a bit of a punch to make him a threat offensively. So far the talisman is based on: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navaratna

Mark contacted me about it saying he was cautious about the whole hindu astrology aspect (which is perfectly understandable). I've tentatively wrote up the talisman as follows:

Octavian’s Talisman was crafted by Tremere artificers inspired by their observations of a gypsy astrologer. They had observed the gems used held some astrological relevance seeing as the configuration was different for each individual. In some cases they had to substitute gems due to cost or unavailability. The Tremeres’ limited understanding of Hindu astrology not withstanding.

The brass ring holds nine gems encased in an electrum setting. Eight gems are aligned in a circle surrounding a central opal (replacing the blue sapphire) and are in no particular order: Topaz (replacing the yellow sapphire), Ruby, Pearl, Jade (cheaper than Emerald), Coral, Cat’s Eye, Diamond and Amber (replacing hessonite that can only be found in Sri Lanka).

So far Octavian has attuned the following shape and material bonuses:

Electrum – Deception +3 – HoH: MC p137
Opal – Images +2 – HoH: TL p139

Animating just the hilt probably won't work, because the hilt and blade are part of the same object--but yes, the gauntlet things work. I would think, though, that animating the gauntlet would require either higher magnitude or a Finesse roll to hit, since you aren't just moving the sword against the target like you are with animating the sword itself.

Scott

What do you mean, you don't want Potent Spontaneous Magic? You gave me a mystery script for learning it!

We discussed this in detail, and doing it the Diedne way vs. doing it your way produces a very similar effect. The consensus seemed to be that, if the effect is the same, it's better to use the pre-existing rules mechanic.

Scott

I have an idea: give her Mythic Blood, which comes with a free power, and then give her a ReAn power that does what you want. I think that's more directly in the spirit of what you're after, and it's also more faerie-like. (Of course, in the Disney movies, it's the mere Presence of the character in question, but really, it's the fact that Disney animals respond to human charisma, which is something that won't work outside a faerie regio in Ars Magica :).

Scott

Scott

Ooh...not only that, but Mythic Blood comes with a Minor Focus...which you could take in Animals.

Scott

Where is Mythic Communication? In Covenants or something?

Scott

Hey Ken,

looks like you should check out the example Magical Cat for ideas on some of your magical animal friends for Buttercup...

atlas-games.com/pdf_storage/ ... Virgil.pdf

RoP: Magic looks like it will be very cool indeed!

Cheers,

Lachie

That would be too brod for a minor focus. Even Major foci subdivide Animal into "Birds or Mammals, or domesticated animals". My character's minor focus is in serpents (snakes up to the great wyrm), which si narrow enough being one family of creature. She could perhaps have a minor focus in songbirds or small furry creatures.

I'm sure it would be a focus in Cute Animals. :slight_smile:

Scott

grin My other PBeM character, Iohannes, has a ship full of odd cats. Timothy likes cats, and I'm sure he'll do something with them sometime. (Note that I don't say that Iohannes has cats!)

Anyway,

Ken

Aurea Pre-Apprenticeship Song List and Scene Summary

"Life's Just the Way It Ought to Be"

A typical, glorious day in this Faerie kingdom. Everyone from the rooster heralds who announce the day, to the fierce dogs-at-arms who guard and patrol (and wench, but their song only hints at this), to the leonine nobility and even to the thieving rats who pick up their heads and walk away after being caught and punished, all live joyously and happily under the perilous wisdom of the (humanly bodied) Faerie Queen. Even the Unnamed Court Magician has a few, dour, good words to say. But Princess Aurea (Buttercup doesn't play well in Latin) isn't happy, despite all her animal friends. She knows there's something more.

"The Grass Isn't Greener"

Aurea tries to learn about the outside world, but the anthromorphic animals either don't know or assure her that this is the best place there is, superior in every way. No answers satisfy her as she works her way through the hierarchy of animals, until her mother tells her about the world outside, speaking truth and wisdom about the worst aspects of the world. Aurea takes leave despondent but chastened. Her mother is right, as always. Being a princess here is far better than being outside, and what else can she be here, other than a princess? Everyone else is perfectly suited to their roles.

"So Much to Do, So Much to Be"

The Unnamed Court Magician overhears her. (Well, who doesn't? :>) When they are alone, he notes that if her mother dies, somehow, Aurea will become queen. The soundtrack intimates that he wants this, but Aurea does not pick up on his evil intent. She is horrified at the thought, and wants her mother to reign forever. The Magician agrees quickly, and callously says that she will indeed rule forever, the perfect Queen, just as Aurea herself shall be trapped forever as the perfect Princess, as she has been since the beginning of time. Aurea asks the Magician to tell her all about the outside world, and whether her mother was right about it being so bad. He acknowledges the truths spoken by the Queen, but sings about adventure and possibility and freedom, inveigling various faeries to speak of their adventures.

"Make Yourself a Name"

When Aurea joins in the song, the Unnamed Court Magician hints that if she were bold, ruthless and willing to be true to herself rather than to others' expectations, she can break free and become the person she longs to be, deep down inside. But Aurea doesn't want to disappoint her mother, and the Unnamed Court Magician is evasive when Aurea asks about his name, and why he doesn't break free. He claims that he can leave anytime and will leave, as soon as he accomplishes what he came for. IThere is a party tonight, in honor of some guests, and Aurea leaves him to sing alone.

"I Was Once a Man"

Alone, the Unnamed Court Magician continues to sing, picking up from his being able to break free anytime he wants. He sings of his enmity for the Queen, for all rules and rulership, and how he has lived his life amassing the power to be free. But there is bitterness and sadnesss beneath the bluster. It slowly becomes clear that he is caught in the changelessness of the kingdom, trapped solely by his overweaning pride. There is a moment where he teeters on the brink of realization, but it passes, as he promises to strike a blow the Queen will remember.

"Noblesse Oblige"

Two human magicians from the mortal world visit the palace. Tarantella of House Criamon is a disfigured, disturbing woman bearing a large sword strapped to her back. It is sheathed and peacebound, yet radiates power even so. Calphalon of House Merinita is a man with golden hair, a cheerful smile and a voice as fair as any in the land. They are feted, and manage to avoid increasingly cunning faerie snares, while maintaining courtesy. At the end, they are complimented by the Queen and given lavish gifts in exchange for their entertainment and in appreciation of their wisdom and grace.

"True Love's Kiss"

Aurea is intrigued by the visitors and follows them. Thinking themselves alone on the balcony, they sing a duet about their day, their lives as wizards, and their love. They kiss. Aurea knows she must leave with them, to be part of their world and perhaps find True Love.

"Some Things Must Be Done"

The next morning she begs them to take her with them. At first they disagree. Calphalon says that it would be a deep breach of etiquette, and Tarantella just listens. But she pleads with them about being trapped in an endless cycle of the same day after day with no meaning to it, and Tarantella abruptly says they will take her. Calphalon protests. Even if it weren't a remarkably bad idea, it isn't possible, because Aurea is as much part of the kingdom as the foundation of the palace, eternal and unmovable. Tarantella isn't moved. She sings of determination and cutting cleanly, decicively, incicively, precisively... She draws her sword and the power is overwhelming. The sky darkens. All life shrinks back, except Calphalon, who says that they don't have enough magic. The Unnamed Court Magician appears, apologizes for the intrusion, yet could not help overhear something about magic. Surely with three powerful wizards, there is sufficient magic for almost anything. Aurea blurts out her intention. The Unnamed Court Magician says that being a wizard is difficult, that she will have to give up a lot, that she will never be able to return. They talk it over, and The Unnamed Court Magician agrees to help them, in exchange for their memories of him, and fifteen years of mortal life from each of the two magicians. And also to disseminate a book, which he hands them. Calphalon asks why the price is so cheap, and the Magician smiles.

....