Table Talk (OOC)

It isn't a hard rule. It's simply that one only has a limited amount of time to be involved in stories. Companions should represent a significant investment of time, while still being support characters to the magi/covenant.

Ok, ty! Understandable :slight_smile:

For now I will focus on knowing if the concept is right with the people and making the maga. If when I'm playing i feel like i have time to do it (and play it)... maybe i'll also think about making a companion.

Challenge Accepted? :sweat_smile:

I am going to try and be done soon, but I'm in the last week of two classes right now (Philosophy of Science and Metaphysics) and they are eating a lot of my time. Next week I'll be over the hump and try to stat up a familiar and elsewise finalize before entering play.

If you mean why do we only have one companion currently, that's because we are going pretty slow and no one else got to the point of developing their companions yet, everybody begins focused on the magus.

But I should bring mine forward in a couple of days! =D

Hey! Don't rush them now just because i asked xD It's ok!
I you don't have the time rn, it's preferible to continue the saga than to make more companions, at least there is the magus in-game :slight_smile:

Felt appropriate to bring this over here. I assumed that fast casting was going to be handled as per RAW, which is why I built a character who focuses on that sort of thing for defenses. Is that up for debate or something?

It isn't outside of RAW. But RAW leaves something unsaid, and there is a broad interpretation of RAW that I don't share.

Namely, that a magus gets a "free" fast-cast spell in addition to a normal-fast spell in a single round, no matter the circumstances and without the fast-cast spell interfering with the normal spell being cast.

The discussion about it starts in early March in this topic: Table Talk (OOC) - #559 by Arthur

So you're more or less only wanting them used defensively? I can live with that.

Related question. There are, as far as I'm aware, no rules for delivering touch ranged spells in combat. But obviously if you're going to use something like a touch ranged version of Pilum, you need to, you know, actually touch the other guy. How do you see something like this being handled, a brawl roll?

Then onto something a bit more specific to my character. How about somebody without the need to make gestures, and using, say, a sword as a talisman? It seems quite reasonable to stick somebody with the pointy end of said sword, and cast whatever touch ranged spell you're so inclined to, but I'm obviously biased.

There's no 'Attack roll' for Touch spells in Ars Magica.
And you can use your talisman to extend your reach to touch someone, but you can't make an attack with your sword talisman to deliver the spell.

Source? Because Performance Magic would seem to indicate otherwise.

Performance Magic is an exception to the rules. You need a virtue to disguise your spellcasting while using another Ability.
And I will have to check it, cause am not sure you can actually attack as you cast the spell. This is more of a dance with the blade as you cast the spell.

You say rules, but as you say, we don't have any regarding delivering touch ranged magic.

That said, you can absolutely attack with Performance Magic as that's precisely the whole point of the virtue, to disguise your magic while performing another ability. Now you take some hefty penalties, because as you say, you're being far more ceremonial than not, but still, the rules a clear on that front.

To my point though, Belisarius has Subtle Magic, so there's no need to make a bunch of weird gestures, he can just reach out and touch you. And if his talisman is a sword, and since there's nothing talking about how to deliver touch range attacks, then it stands to reason that he should be able to swing his sword and do just that.

But as I said, I'm obviously biased, so I'd like other folks to toss their two cents in.

Casting a spell while engaging in combat is difficult -- even if no gestures are involved. See the Concentration rules on ArM5 p.82. Unless you just stand there and let your opponent hit you (Dfn total of 0), you will be at least Dodging to some extent. So the Ease Factor will be at least 12 on your Concentration roll.

Just touching your target with your sword is easier that actually hitting it, since even touching a shield or armor is sufficient from a spell-casting perspective. So I'd probably give a +6 bonus to an Attack if that is all you are trying to do.

Performing an actual damaging attack with the sword at the same time is a different story. First off, you are actually performing an action during the round -- a melee attack -- so any spell would need to be fast cast. Then you want to also hit your target with a damaging sword attack, which I'd consider needs a normal attack roll. If you miss, than you miss and also failed to touch your target for your spell's purpose.

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Performance Magic has a side box regarding using martial abilities while casting. See TMRE p.29. The relevant text:

While Brawl and Martial Abilities may be used in Performance Magic, the magus needs to perform semi-ritualistic movements to cast spells, responding to the needs of the spell, not to the actions of an opponent. If the magus is in combat, then he may only use Performance Magic (Brawl or Martial Abilities) if the player rolls a stress die with three extra botch dice, and treats all non-botches as die rolls of zero. (This represents ignoring the opponent and casting the spell.)

So, clearly allowed, but also, carries some risk.

There is also an example of using Performance Magic (Music), and I think the last phrase of the first paragraph is relevant:

He can cast spells silently, but only by not using Sorcerous Music.

*sorcerous music is a particular term for Performance Magic (Music).

The example character needs to produce music to cast using the virtue. He can play/sing quietly, but not abscond with the noise.

Based on that my understanding is that for Performance Magic (Single Weapon) you need to make the gestures. Subtle Magic wouldn't help because you can't suppress them. You could, in theory, make subtle gestures (with a -2 to the casting total) but I'm not sure this is fully compatible with actual fighting (it would be, OTOH, with a series of small stretches using the sword). See also this paragraph from pg. 29:

The magus must actually perform the Ability to count as using this Virtue, and other Virtues or Mastery Abilities do not remove that requirement. For example, he cannot sing silently, although he can hunt silently.

So, he needs to actually use the weapon.

As for casting without gestures w/o Performance Magic, I understand you couldn't do that and attack (the whole point of Performance Magic is to allow one to do something else and cast at the same time).

If using Performance Magic I don't think you'd need to concentrate (the whole point of Performance Magic is to allow one to do something else and cast at the same time), unless something else happened to disturb the magus. So, no concentration to fight and cast, or to fight whie concentrating on an already cast spell, but if you get hurt by an enemhy while fighting and concentrating this prompts a concentration roll as usual.

I agree that touching someone hostile is difficult. I'd suggest, instead of giving the caster (attacker) getting a bonus, the defender can only dodge (no parry is possible, shields are useless).

OTOH, HoH:S speaks of the Wizard's Melee, where only Personal and Touch spells are allowed (@Nithyn, please put Belisarius in one f these!!! If you don't, I will!!! =D). No penalty or bonus is mentioned to touch hostile targets (possibly to make things simpler?).

I think that the magus is clearly exposing himself to danger by approaching an hostile target, and a clever opponent could exploit that. Maybe we could use rules of interrupting initiative from Lords of Man to allow an opponent to try to hack a magus as he extends his hand? Or maybe, simply say that a magus who cast a touch spell on an opponent can't benefit from a shield grog in that turn?

But these are just suggestions, and some of them would make combat too tiresome. Maybe we want to err on the side of simplicity and narrative storytelling.

Finally, for a Talisman sword, I think it's fair play to have an enchanted effect that triggers on touching the blade (maybe only one side of the blade, so that you can use the other side against targets with MR?). But for this I'd require an attack (as before, this can only be dodged, not parried or blocked).

I think this is accurate given the example of "Dodging" is one of the difficulty 12 examples. So he would need be able to regularly overcome the distractions of combat to be able to cast reliably under those circumstances. But it can be done.

I would tentatively suggest that the right Mentem spells/effects might be useful here to augment the ability to overcome distractions. But that could also detract from combat awareness, which is ... not something the military man in me would generally endorse. :wink:

Sounds like Belisarius is going to need to be able to find the "Calm In The Storm" on the regular.

I would concur with this more or less though I would posit that by RAW he could use his own physical attack as the thing he wanted to Fast Cast in response to in order to deliver it while he is still touching or as he is touching the enemy. If that is precluded by a "defense only" view of Fast Casting that might affect things.

Also he could attack and even if he didn't "hit" the enemy, if the enemy blocked the attack instead of dodging they could still have been "Touched" for spell purposes via blocking?

Re: Other Views of Fighting & Casting At the Same Time

I think it seems pretty clear in the Performance Magic description that it is "possible" to fight and cast at the same time. The thing that Performance Magic lets you do, significantly, is blend them into a single action. Nithyn doesn't have or seem to want Performance Magic, he wants to be fighting normally and add in the occasional spell via Fast Casting in combat. And this casting would be unimpeded by him fighting at the same time specifically from the perspective that his lack of gestures for casting doesn't matter due to that virtue. (Meaning Subtle Magic here.)

Touch spell use in combat is something of an ill defined thing in the rules as is, and using them offensively doesn't seem outlandish to me just on that account. Also a Talisman expressly extends your Touch so making use of that is ... part of the point? Even if most of us never take advantage of that aspect of it, it is by design one of the reasons to have and use a Talisman. So delivering a Touch spell via his sword Talisman to me is just RAW being applied.

The only debatable aspect here to me is how Fast Casting modifies these things.

All in all I think it makes for an interesting character and set of ideas. Just also one who is built on the concept of doing a set of things that are rather challenging in their own way. He needs to regularly pass Concentration checks for casting, Finesse checks for Fast Casting, and be at least ok/decent in a physical fight for it all to be worth it. These are not casual level of investments in various things to make this all work, so I don't see any problems here. I tend to be of a view that we should need explicit reasons for things not to work and I don't see any here.

Makes sense to me, cheers mate.

Oh you bet your bottom dollar he will be! It's one of the reasons I had him spend the last few years at Castra Solis after all!

Had something like this in mind actually! A PeTe(He) effect to weaken or destroy wood/metal at part would be an interesting effect to enchant into a sword talisman. Would let ya cleave right through things without MR.

Agreed. Seems like a quick way to end up with... problems.

Well said, thanks mate! Yeah, this is an extremely heavy investment as you say, but it feels very flavorful and fun, ya know?

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Speaking of random niche things, I wanted to address something that I have been playing with in my head for a while now, and is something that I suspect affects @Vortigern too given his character's focus.

Container effects.

Now I know this is a 5e change and as such rubs some people the wrong way, but as there is no requirement that containers are rituals, it opens up a whole new, and very interesting can of worms. Especially as you're allowed to choose the method of triggering the effect when casting the container, so there's quite a bit of flexibility.

Think for example, of a literal pilum that has a touch range piulm in a container. Now hand some of those out to the turb... And that's just the tip of the iceberg as it were. The ability to spont a spell or two (or ten) and then store them in a container allows for quite a bit of flexibility. Quite a lot of it in fact. While hardly game breaking, it felt important to address this very real possibility. There are of course some big limfacs. Namely the preparation required, the duration of the container itself, and the fact that only one can be put in any given item. But the point still stands

As an aside, potentially spells in containers could be activated as a 'fast cast' as it were. Again, not that this is game breaking as items can already do that, but still. There's just a lot of interesting applications I hadn't considered.

I think Containers are nifty but have a lot of potential for not being received well, trying to put it delicately?

The guideline for creating them really is rather giving so nearly anyone could spont a short to day duration one that could hold a meaningful amount of spell levels. So it isn't "hard magic" as it were. It just takes forethought (and having formulaic spells helps) and book keeping if you will.

I haven't gone super heavy into this yet with Vorsutus though obviously with his focus I intend to. So far he just has enough to allow him to layer effects as he successively casts them when doing his "high ritual" style of casting so that he doesn't have to make Concentration checks as he lines up his chains of spells.

But there are far more complex and/or active uses of them that are possible. I'm not sure however what you are concerned about here as regards their application.

The only sparsely defined area of the rules involving Containers is their triggering I think. Past adventures and the like have them going off "when someone else other than the magus enters the lab" or the like. Or other times having spells in the Container that then are used to be the trigger condition.
When a trigger spell is required vs not seems vague. Otherwise they seem to function pretty clearly/consistently. I think they are just jarring at times because prior editions didn't have the explicit container guideline allowing for non-ritual magic to employ them as effects?

What are Containers? Where i can find more info?

It's a ReVi guideline out of the core rules. Check out Watching Ward for an example (though it's a ritual due to duration but still).