INTEGRATING THE MAGIC OF VIRGIL
Virgilian magic is the source of potential breakthroughs for the magus who integrates it with Hermetic magic theory.
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Improved Watching Spells Suggested Breakthrough Points: 45
Hermetic magic currently lacks a way of binding a Watching effect and a spell together without a separate ritual, Watching Ward, which requires vis.
Minor hermetic virtue: Watching spells
The magus is able to create Watching Ward spells that do not need to be cast as rituals. A prerequisite of the Form Vim is added to the spell, and vis is not required unless the spell would be a ritual anyway.
Consequences of integration
The principal consequence of integrating this effect is to greatly increase the number of magical wards available to magi. This makes magical defenses far more prevalent, and slowly changes Hermetic culture as sanctums become more secure and magical “traps” more common.
Let's be real, Ars consistency across the line is... mixed at best. To me this is very clearly an issue where the author is pulling from older editions, as the aforementioned guidelines are a 5e change. But again, if this were a special, ritual only spell, the guidelines would be marked as such, like they are with every other unique spell. Instead they're the exact same guidelines as Intangible Tunnel, which very clearly isn't a ritual.
But let's say I accept your premise that the ritual is what makes the duration guideline special, that there's no way to attach a trigger Intellego spell, or to give some other sort of 'physical' trigger, and it simply fires the spell off whenever the container spell expires. I disagree vehemently, but I can see how a literal reading of the guideline (while a container will hold a spell for a specific length of time before releasing it) would cause you to go down that route. That said, it's a simple matter of making the container concentration duration, and hitting it with a sustainment spell. Now all one has to do is think about the spell, and poof, it expires, and the spell triggers. A little more work yes, but totally feasible.
That said, I think we need @Arthur to chime in here, as @Vortigern has had a Sun duration container spell on his sheet since he made the character, and nobody has batted an eyelash.
As Vortigern said, its very probably a language barrier ^^! Trying to write fast i sounded more... idk, hostile?
I dont have too much time rn, but i will try to explain again myself: What i want is just call things by the correct name. Thats its a houserule, not RAW.
Why i though that? Because as i read the spell i felt like i wasnt unable to see the same that you said. I read it into my own language too, to see if there was a difference due translation, and i felt the same.
At the end, after the last Vortigern post, i though that it was impossible that we were the first ones to think about this... so i just made a search in google: "ars magica 5 watching ward no ritual".
It took me a few seconds to find several threads of this very same forum about this same topic, and the reference about Rival Magic that i copied here.
From the start i just wanted to point that i didnt read it as RAW, that i couldnt be RAW because it was too convenient and then i found the exact reference where its told explicitly that you cannot do that (again, by RAW). At least without a breakthrough (btw, discovering the way to do it can be a good goal and a good adventure, after all).
Now, we can talk about how it would be better or worse if added, if Rival Magic is a good book or not and we can play how we want. We want to houserule it? Perfect! Every group has its own houserules after all
So, if people here wants to be able to have Watching Wards for free, we can talk about it.
If its accepted I will pick a Watching Ward with Alba so i can autocast all my defensive spells when im attacked and thats all Then, everybody else will do the same and any magi will have autodefenses against all the typical attacks. Everybody will know this and we will adapt.
The base issue, if I understood correctly, is whether Watching Ward can have a different duration than it's Special, without the breakthrough from Rival Magic, pg.74, and then not be a Ritual.
My reading of the guideline and spell leads me to think that Watching Ward is a ritual because of the potential for the container to have a long duration (in excess of Year). Essentially, it creates a charged item without the need to spend a season in the lab.
So a shorter-duration spell container could exist without being a ritual, but then it would follow the guideline which specifies that it would "hold a spell for a specific length of time before releasing it." The trigger condition still needs to be simple, like a set time (shorter than the duration full of could of the container spell), the object being moved or broken, etc.
You could still put multiple spells within the container, however. So for more complex triggers you could use an Intellego spell within the container, as stated in Watching Ward. But the level of the container spell might rise to the point where it would need to be a ritual anyway.
Note that spells within the container must have a Range and Target appropriate for its intent, and cannot easily select a target without an associated Intellego spell within the container. So a Pilum of Fire could be used against the thing that moved the container, but if the trigger condition is time than it cannot target anything except the target of the container spell (meaning the object itself).
And contained spells will be released at the end of the duration of the container spell. So if your grog forgets your Pilum of Fire Sun-duration rock in his pouch, he might very well get burned when the container spell lapses.
Your views on Containers fairly well match mine. Though I think the analogy to a charged item is also apt for using them, if they are set up with suitable trigger conditions for being purposefully activated. That said I also agree that a suitable Intellego effect layered in as a trigger improves this a great deal.
The explain the analogy further, a charged item requires the investment of a season in the lab to produce one or more items that will last until they are used, but no raw vis.
Watching Ward also produces a single item that will last until it is used. But since the time requirement is very small (a few hours at the most), then it makes sense that this requires raw vis.
A lesser-duration container spell allows the creation of a non-lasting charged item. The highest duration it can sustain is Moon. That allows it to get around the investment in raw vis.
But in any case, the default trigger of a container must be simple and preset. It cannot make use of any far-reaching sense. It cannot differentiate its limited senses. So even just saying that the trigger is touching the item is dicey, since until you set it to float in the air, it will be touching something and trigger immediately. Moving it, smashing it, pouring the content out are valid simple triggers. Uttering a word or two is the farthest I would allow -- and even that is stretching it since the object has no sense of hearing, but that is a common enough trope that I have a hard time denying it.
Everything else will require an Intellego spell within the container spell. The limits the power of the effect of vis-less containers, since if you want to put a far-reaching trigger plus a powerful effect you will soon need a container spell above level 50, which will make it a ritual spell.
Just to confirm, regarding us joining the Rhine Tribunal, are we still set on that? Does anyone have ideas on how to proceed?
I figured Regulus would try to peruse the Tribunal records of Rhine, focused on covenants, to get a grasp on the relations between the several covenants, which ones are likely to pose us trouble, and which ones are likely to be allies. This could also uncover a few minor things that we can try to solve to gain support. How does this sound? My idea is to have Regulus research as a "source of hooks and information", so to speak.
A few questions:
According to The Guardians of the Forest, Waddenzee is founded in 1207, in midst of some turbulence. Do we want to explore that?
Again in GotF, the covenant of Rethra is abolished in the Tribunal of 1207. I think investigating the ruins of the covenant might be a suitable task for a group of magi trying to join. Also suitable as quaesitorial work for Regulus. Probably something best done by 1206, so that we can present the results of our investigations by 1207. What do you all think? Would anyone want to run that?
The book pants Rethra as a winter covenant in a faerie aura. Pagan slavic magi with a focus on divination. The exact details regarding the covanant ar left for the troupe to decide, but the book makes a suggestion of infernal plot (I haven't read the details,so I can't really say much). Seems like something that could also atract a lot of our magi (Wolfgang, Vorsutus, Celeste, Regulus) and kickstart Tugurium's presence in Rhine.
The details regarding Rethra are scattered through the book, but as I said, as far as I see, the SG would have a lot of leeway to create his own things, including ditching the thing about the infernal.
While I must admit to a certain amount of Rhine weariness due to it being the seemingly default tribunal, it makes perfect sense in this instance, and I see no reason not to move forward.
This makes perfect sense to me! For his part, Belisarius intends to cozy on up to the Ash Gild, which should help us quite a bit on the allies front. Got a few ideas about our mundane situation and how to address things going forward that might give a certain Q fits, but hey, that's the Jerbiton way?
I think it's an excellent idea! Especially since it kills two birds with one stone as it were. That is to say, proving our usefulness/willingness to help to the tribunal. And also allowing us to potentially augment the covenant's resources by seeing what hasn't already been looted and making use of what we can.
As i said when i came here, my irl friends like to play their version of Ars Magica, so i don't have any previous experience with tribunals to be able to compare them xD
For now, i understood that the Rhine Tribunal was already choosen for Tugurium. Those days i was reading GotF to learn a little more about it, but if people want another one its ok.
Since i did my character pretty ignorant on those things, is ok Tribunal, because i will be able to learn any Tribunal at the same time that her
Using your character as a hook generator sounds pretty cool tbh
Great!
But now that you mention them... i want to ask something about the magis of Tugurium... who are still active?
I mean, you name Celeste, but is the character finished? The last time i saw her player, it was just a ninja ghost xD And is Plot_Device still with us?
Am still here. Been busy at work, and with the political situation in my country, so haven't had much time, but I hope, fingers crossed, to continue tomorrow.
I had some troubles with figuring out the stats for the possible Faerie Familier for my merinita, but I think I got them worked out.
Good to know that you will be with us then, but sad to know that your country is having a bad moment
I see that you need to make a whole new faerie character, so, as Rafael said, if you need some help just tell us. Im still preparing my character, but i can take some time to do numbers or search some options/ideas.
Then, everybody else will do the same and any magi will have autodefenses against all the typical attacks. Everybody will know this and we will adapt.
